At 4zzz, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging of the Turbul and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded and we stand in solidarity with. Mission on 4zzz. Amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Mean Brisbane and beyond.

This episode includes discussion of transphobia, misogyny, sexism, violence, abuse and experiences of exclusion and discrimination in men's spaces. We also touch on mental health, safety concerns and emotional distress. While we avoid graphic detail, some themes may be challenging. Please take care while listening and feel free to pause or step away if needed. Support services and resources are listed in the show notes or you can contact QLife for queer peer support on 1-800-184-527 between 3pm and 9pm or beyondblue on 1300224636 for around the clock brief counselling.

That's right, we're about to enter into a heavy discussion around a bunch of things relating to trans masc experiences. Welcome back to Transmission Series. It's a Man's World. This is part two all about power, safety and Conflict in the first episode of Transmission series, we discussed first encounters, learning the rules and early negotiations of masculinity. Titled Entering a Man's World Today, we're digging into what happens after you've entered men's spaces. When the unspoken rules become clearer, power dynamics start to show themselves and questions of safety, dominance and belonging become unavoidable. Men's spaces, whether it's a work site, a footy club, a pub, a gym or online forums, aren't just social environments. They're shaped by hierarchies, competition, silence, bravado and sometimes aggression. For trans men and transmasculine people, navigating these dynamics can mean consistently assessing risk, managing how visible or invisible you can afford to be, and deciding when to speak up, blend in or push back. In this episode we're focusing on lived experiences of negotiating power, setting boundaries, responding to conflict, and staying safe physically, emotionally and socially while moving through masculinity in so called Australia. I'm your host ez, joined by my best friend Elliot. Both he him as always, we're not speaking for all trans men, trans masculine people or CIS men. This series is about experiences that our experiences how we navigate, survive, challenge and deconstruct masculinity in in real time. So let's get into it. That's right. We're gonna start by mentioning this section that we're gonna chat about. So, Elliot, here we are again.

Yeah.

Discussing our lives.

Have fun.

How fun?

Don't you love just talking about yourself?

Not really. I know, but as a community service, I'm happy to do it. Yeah. So we're going to chat a little bit about safety, surveillance and passing. We'll give you a bit of an idea for the CIS people listening. Allies of trans community. We might use some language that you don't know. If at any point you are like, what the heck is that word? Please ask. Let us know if you have a question or thoughts or anything.

Yeah, it's really easy to forget that the language that we have and we use for each other is not normal for some other people and not understood. Yeah. So if, if you don't understand, please let us know.

Yeah, please do. Please do. And for podcast listeners who are listening in the future, but this is in the past, you can always message on social media rans with a Z radio, you can message us there. We've also got an email trans with a Z. Missionourzz.org au you can email us as well. Ask away. Happy to explore, but if you're sharing an opinion, I don't want to hear about it. That's the other thing. Opinions, don't know. Questions. All good. Cool. Great. Well, talking about safety, surveillance and passing. So first question right off the bat, Elliot, how do you decide if a space or if a man's space feels safe? How do you know? What's your clues?

Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of immediate, like, immediate visual assessments of, like, visual. Who's in the space? Like, what is available in the space? Like, you know, if we're talking about, I don't know, like a public space, like a gym or whatever, right? It's. I look at the workers that are there. I look at if there's any visual. Like if there's, you know, sometimes places will have the sticker at the front being like, oh, this is a queer friendly space or whatever. Looking for rainbow clues, looking for rainbow clues. Looking for like just general vibes. Like a lot of it is energy based, which is like, it sounds really woohoo. But like, like a lot of it is just like I come into a space visually, I'm looking around, like, if it's a gym, you know, how many women are there?

That's a good time.

Do they look comfortable? You know, what, what's happening? How many like big beefy dudes are there, like looking menacing or like, you know, Being weird around the women that are around, you know?

Yeah, I'm usually like, if a man is shirtless, I won't engage with him.

Yeah, no, for sure. I'm not.

I'm like, I'm.

Your nipples are out the beach or something like. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah. Okay, look, I feel like.

I think there's specific locations where I think that's.

Maybe it's just because I'm like, if your nipples are out, you're not standing in solidarity with all free the nipple movement. So therefore you're probably not someone I want to talk to. But, you know, I can see.

I can see where that comes from. I don't know if I agree personally.

What? Trans people, we're supposed to agree on everything. We're monolithic. Yeah, no, it's hard to. It is. It can be hard to. To determine. Sometimes you can think something safe and then it's not. Which is why we deal with a mental load of constant self monitoring and anticipated stigma, which mentioned in the previous episode of It's a Man's World, which is like you're anticipating some kind of pushback, hatred. Or maybe you will get clocked. So clocked, that's a term of like, oh, I can see. I look at you and I know that you're trans. Yeah, that's called getting clocked. So, yeah, there are times where that happens. I feel like that happens less to me.

Yeah. I. I purposefully make myself clockable.

How do you do that?

Well, not. Not to like the CIS straights, but, like, I'll purposefully do things or wear things that make it obvious that if I'm. If not trans, I'm at least queer to some description. In an effort to look like a safer person, like in reverse to myself, feeling safe. I want to be somebody who other people feel safe around. So I'll.

Nail polish is good.

Nail polish is good for that. But I have had to be careful about wearing nail polish because that also makes me feel unsafe in men's spaces. So, like, it's a balance, right? It's really delicate.

Just one nail.

Just a single nail.

The thumb.

Yeah, sure. So, like, it's. It's a delicate. It's a delicate balance. But like, you know, I have piercings. I'll often wear, like fun shirts. You know, the classic Dangerfield trans guy sort of situation.

Salmon.

Salmon. I can't wear salmon. My skin tone isn't.

Yeah, no, salmon doesn't work.

Not me either.

Not that I wouldn't wear it.

Think you like wearing pink? Yeah. Maybe there's some pinks that maybe I could wear. But like.

Yeah, just call it pink. People call it salmon too because like. Is this your way of trying to like deep, less feminine feminine. Just say it's pink. Guys, like, calm down the colour. It's not gonna hurt you.

Yeah.

Although they think it does.

It burns.

Yeah. So, yeah. Deciding whether you feel safe in the space and then using like little, little cues, like, I don't know if they call them dog whistles or if I'd call them like Subtle. Yeah, subtle cues.

Subtle cues. Yeah.

Also like something that's hard to. To negotiate in space with men sometimes is there always seems to be kind of like power dynamics at play.

It always feels like there's a hierarchy.

Yeah. Or like there's like a central man or something.

It definitely depends. But like, I've definitely felt that.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's where this whole like group mentality stuff kind of like comes in as well. But yeah, I mean something as well is like when I'm in spaces, sometimes I feel like I'm being watched or being like when it comes to surveillance, like. And I think all men actually feel this way. I don't think this is exclusively a trans masculine experience. I think that all men are policing themselves and policing each other on whether something is more feminine or masculine enough. Constantly. Yeah. It's really exhausting.

Yeah. There seems to be like, there's this performative masculinity. Right. Like they're constantly on watch for themselves and for others about, you know, what they should be doing as a man or what they should be believing, what they should be thinking, what they should be wearing otherwise, like, there's this constant fear of. Of judgement of being othered.

Do you think now I haven't, I haven't passed this by before we spoke on it, so this is getting raw here. But do you think that anything that doesn't fit this mould in, like when it comes to men surveying men to keep them quote unquote manly or whatever, do you think that it's just anything that is feminine specifically? Like anything other than whatever is in quotations masculine, it's feminine or other?

I think, I think it can be a lot of things. Um, Like, I don't remember when we were talking about this. We could have even talked about this last show. But the idea that men can't get with or can't feel attraction to certain women.

Right.

Because that's not seen as, oh, like.

Being into like a woman who's like more.

More butcher, tomboy or whatever or Even bigger women. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, I think we did touch on this.

Yeah, yeah. Like, they can't, they, they can't be attracted to a specific type of person because that doesn't fit the mould of, you know.

Yeah, you got to be Bobby and Ken or get out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't think that that's inherently a masculine trait, like your, your attraction to somebody, but I think it is something that's policed at this weird level of, like, being a man.

Yeah, true, true. Do you find this stuff exhausting?

Totally, yeah. I mean, like, I feel quite separated from it because I don't engage with a lot of CIS heterosexual men in my day to day. But it's still, like, it's still a part of life. It's still a part of, like, what we have to deal with. And I think the idea of it is exhausting for me. Like just the concept of, like, if I really dig deep and think about, like, what if that was my world? What if that was how I live day to day, you know, that just sounds so exhausting.

Yeah. Also with passing. So passing, you know, is kind of contentious within the community about, about it. Passing as the. In my opinion, passing is, is the concept that. So what. Back it up. My thoughts are getting ahead of me. So passing is within trans language and trans dialogue. It means, okay, I'm a trans person, but when I'm walking out and around in the world, I pass as the gender that I want to present as. So people, he, him, me, they refer to me as a man, so on and so on. And they would continue to do that. Probably even if I told them that I was a trans man, they would continue to do that. People don't look at me and assume that I'm a trans person at all. That's called passing. And we also call it passing privileges. Because it's a privilege to have this kind of. Well, it's a perceived privilege. It's a perceived privilege that you can move through the world as a man and have all the access to men's spaces and so on and so on and so on. But what we're talking about here in this series is that actually, no, all trans men and trans masculine people do experience, not so much necessarily the privileges, but also anticipated stigma, fear.

There's a lot of things that go around that, yeah, you get, but then there's also other parts of that that aren't such a privilege.

Yeah. Well, just because I look and sound and walk and talk like a man in, in the world doesn't mean that I'm not terrified just like any other trans person of being found out, but also of performing masculinity wrong because men police each other. But also, what happens if you pass as a man and you have relationships with people or interactions with people that way and then suddenly you're outed? Does that mean that things become dangerous, become hostile? You don't know what's going to happen. So. Yeah, it's not. I don't know if I'd call it a privilege as like you just feel like maybe a ticking time bomb.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Like, I mean, I'm looking for a new housemate at the moment and I have to really think about, you know, what if I get a CIS straight person in? You know what? Like, should I be police? Like would, would I be policing myself every day, living inside my own home with the way that I engage with the world and you know, live in my own home?

Would you stealth?

Yeah, like what? Like what am I doing there? And what, what would it look like having a CIS straight person in my house that doesn't understand the trans experience or the queer experience?

Yeah, I mean, I probably wouldn't.

Yeah, that's scary.

Yeah, no, scary thought but like, you know, they're realities. Yeah, totally. Oh, safety, surveillance, passing. All these things we're chatting about on transmission this morning. Now we're going to talk more about privilege, authority and misogyny.

Elliot.

Tell me, what was it like experiencing privilege for the first time?

Male privilege, specifically?

Yes.

Yeah, it was really confronting. I say it a lot and I've been sort of called out for saying this because it made people feel uncomfortable, but I became significantly more of a feminist post transition, post passing than I was while I was presenting as a woman because I saw it so distinctly, the differences in how I was treated day to day.

It's in like every single thing, every interaction. It's like almost it's every interaction like it is.

And it's, it's not just men, it's women as well. Yeah. You know, it's just the, like the, this patriarchal society that we have running that puts more respect and you know, more trust my way because of the way that I present, because I have a beard now and a deeper voice, you know, and yeah, that like, that was really significant, like from, from the get like three months in, I, I looked like a 16 year old boy, but I was getting more respect than I was as a 26 year old woman.

Ouch. That's a wound.

Yeah.

And it's True. It's true. It's happening. I also had to stop talking to some people about it as well, because I. When I started experiencing male privilege, I was so shocked. I was genuinely so shocked by some of the interactions that I was having that I couldn't stop talking about them because I was, like, kind of. I was, like, in awe of how bizarre it was, but also outraged.

Yeah. People uncomfortable to hear.

Oh, yeah. When you pointed out.

Yeah.

When you point out that we don't see women as human and we see men as something else is bizarre.

Yeah.

One of my first experiences was that when I was, like, training, I was under. I was being trained at a new job that I just got. And the supervisor that I had at the time was a femme presenting. I'm not gonna assume their gender. Femme presenting person. She. They pronouns at the time. And they were training me. And I had just. I was maybe, like three months on testosterone. My voice had broken. I just started getting a lot of bros in public. And I was still kind of, like, quite nervous about my every interaction that I was having because I was working in a retail situation, and I had a. This. This guy came in with his girlfriend. The girlfriend didn't say anything the whole time. And the guy came up to me and he basically was like, hey, can you tell me when this particular thing's coming in stock? I really want it. And I said, great question. I have no idea. Let me ask my supervisor, because I'm new. And so she came over and started talking to this guy in front of me. And the guy, the customer, was looking at me in the eye the entire time she was talking to him, giving him the valuable information he needed to know when said item comes in.

Yeah.

And I kept, like, looking back, looking. Looking at him in the eye, looking at her, looking at him in the eye, looking back at her, going, why is he looking at me? Why isn't he looking at her like she's telling him something? And then she finished talking, and he goes. He looks at me expectantly, waiting. And I'm like, he's just waiting for you to, like, respond to, acknowledge that you've heard what she said. He just kept looking at me. So then I took it upon myself to repeat almost verbatim what she had said to him. And then he goes, thanks, bro. Yeah, great. Awesome. Thank you so much. And, like, kind of like fist bumps me or whatever and then leaves. And my co worker at the time just kind of like, walked off and went back behind the counter. And I remember being, like, standing There, looking at this guy leaving, looking at her being like, what just happened? Like, why did I have to. Whoa.

And your supervisor's reaction, if I remember right, was just like, oh, yeah, that happens.

Oh, yeah, that happens. And I was like, yeah, but not. I had not been on the other side of this.

Yeah.

Before. And that was the first. That was my first time being, like, horrified. I'm like, can you not even listen to women? Like, what is so obvious?

And it's so obvious. It, like, it's so weird being on the other side of that, for sure. Like, you know, when you are presenting as a. As a woman and you. And you're seeing that and feeling that and, you know, being a part of those interactions, it does. It does just. You know, it's like water off a duck's back, because that's. That is your norm. That's what you expect from the world.

Yeah.

But then. Yeah. Being on the other side, it's like, whoa, yeah, wait a minute.

It's all perception of each other. It's all, like, conditioning. And it becomes so real when you start experiencing this kind of privilege. It's also. It's just an uncomfortable privilege, too, because it's just not fair. It was a complete waste of time, too. Can you imagine how much time we all would have saved if he wasn't sexist?

Yeah.

He could have just listened to her, and then I could have done something else. Or we could have saved, like, three minutes of me repeating a spiel. The amount of, like. It's just such a waste of so much.

Totally. Totally.

Yeah.

How do you feel when you are a witness to that kind of misogyny? Like, do you find that you have it within yourself now to, like, speak up when you're in those situations? Like, when. Like, when do you decide that you want to or that you don't feel safe to do that?

So if I'm feeling particularly outnumbered. So, like, if there's a lot of CIS men around me in the conversation or in the context of what's going on, I might choose not to say something, and maybe I'll call someone in. So I might talk to someone later and be like, hey, dude, that was not cool before.

Yeah.

But I. I'm not a silent person. I struggle to stay silent, and I struggle not to speak up generally. However, if I feel like there could be potentially violence or aggression, I won't say anything, because I don't. It's just not how I pick my. Pick your battles. Right. Like, sometimes you can win them, sometimes you don't. Like, there was no point in me addressing that with that. That particular customer because, like, he was completely unaware he was even doing it.

And there's also a power imbalance. Right. Because you are a service worker in that situation, and, like, you were newly on board too. So, like, you know, if you speak up and he makes a complaint, you're casual.

But also, my supervisor, who experienced the blatant ignoring of.

Yeah.

Was. Was relatively unfazed. It didn't seem to affect them in a way that would. They'd be thinking about it. They probably have no memory of this. I remember it because it was so significant to me.

Yeah.

But I do generally call out men. And if I hear something sexist, if I hear men talking about women's bodies, I. I have a very. I'll say, we don't talk like that.

Yeah.

And if they say something, I'm like, I'll just repeat it slower. We don't talk like that. And then I just leave it. It's just saying one thing. All you need to do is say one thing. And they think about themselves.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

But it is scary.

Oh, for sure.

Every time I do it, my blood pressure rises and I feel my heart rate increase.

Yeah.

So you feel that adrenaline because we're fearing violence. Right. And that's a man's experience. It's not just a exclusively a trans experience. I think men live in a place.

Of violence, and I think that's why a lot of men don't speak up, is because they can't conquer. Conquer that fear. They can't work past that and, you know, assess these situations.

It's a good word that men, I hear, often use the word conquer in relation to a lot of things.

Yeah.

Yeah. What do you do when you witness misogyny or sexism or do you. Or is that something.

Yeah, I. I don't tend to do the. We don't talk like that. Like that. You know, that. Real blank statements. I tend to ask questions. I go like, what do you mean? What are you. What are you trying to say? I had a customer talk really explicitly. I think I said this last. Last show really explicitly about Aloy. No, not Aloy. Bloody hell.

Oh, Ghosts of Yote. Yeah. Yeah.

Erica Ishii about how video game people. Video game people. About how gross and ugly she was as a main. As a lead. And I was like, what? Mean what? What? I was like, what?

Just play the game.

I was like, what do you mean? And he goes, oh, you know. You know, it would be way better if she, you know, was sexier, looked like, you know, XYZ character from this other game. And I'm like, but that wouldn't make any sense. What are you talking about? It wouldn't make any sense for her to be that. That, like, that's not the style of the game that you're playing. Like, what are you. Why would you want that? It makes no sense.

Just go buy a wife who pillow. Be quiet, man.

But, like, that's. That's generally the way I go about it.

Yeah.

I mean, like, what. What are you talking about? Like, are you serious right now? And that tends to, like, if it's a normal, regular person, they're just like, oh, wow. Like, yeah, I actually am being kind of weird right now. Like.

Yeah. And it. And it is weird. I think it is weird. I had a situation recently where I was at a. Had a photo shoot. I decided to do some photos for a gym. And at one point they separated the some guys. And I was one of those guys with the photographer who was, I'm gonna say mid-50s, very grey, older guy, had like an English accent. Anyway, whatever. He. He was a photographer and we were. It was like four dudes, four guys of us in the space doing different kind of like poses and things for this gym.

Yeah.

And I. I do a lot of stretching. I do a lot of fun floor floor work. So I do a lot of, like, yoga mat stuff. Anyway, so I was doing some stretches and this guy obviously liked the photographer, liked the poses, and he got some of the other dudes to do some of the poses with me. And they were not as flexible as me.

Yeah, of course not. Because they wouldn't do any stretch because flexible.

Being flexible is quote unquote gay or feminine, whatever. Anyway, it's really good for you. Flexibility is extremely important as you age. Just letting you know. Anyway, so I was doing some stretches and this guy, we started doing stretches together and then he was taking photos. And then after he was satisfied with the amount of photos he got of this particular series of poses, he said, okay, ladies. And I just went, do you have a problem with women? Straight away.

Yeah.

And he went completely quiet. Didn't say anything. All the other men didn't say anything. They were all quiet. And I went, you are all cowards. This is how we have misogyny is because you were like, it benefits you. So you say nothing.

Yeah.

And then when someone does say something, you get even quieter, like, mom is going to get in. You're getting in trouble. Mom or something. But, like, him saying, okay, ladies, not only did he not know that I was trans, but I felt misgendered.

Yeah.

But two, it was completely meant to be that stretches are feminine.

Yeah.

And that you're all now women because you were doing these stretches. And I immediately responded with, do you have a problem with women?

Yeah.

And he said, nothing. And I went, right, cool. Well, this is something I'm going to keep in mind now. But yeah, it happens all the time. And you can call each other out. You should totally. You should.

100%. Yeah.

Anyway, I feel like my blood pressure's rising because that was recent.

QLife is Australia's first nationally oriented counselling and referral service for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex or LGBTI people. QLife provides peer supported telephone and web based services to diverse people of all ages. They help callers with a range of issues relating to sexuality and gender, including coming out, as well as more general issues such as relationship problems. So remember, you can call the QLifeLine daily from physical 5:30pm till 10:30pm on 1-800-184527. And for online chat and support, go.

To qlife.org au you're listening to Transmission on 4zzz. We are doing a special part two of it's a Man's World talking about power, safety and conflict. My name is ez, I use he, him pronouns.

My name is Elliot, and I also use he him pronouns.

And we are now going to be touching on the topics of transphobia, erasure and masculine hierarchies, which is yay.

I think that a really, a really trans, masculine experience in terms of transphobia is the infantilization that we can experience. Because I think due to this patriarchal world that we live in, women are not trusted to make their own decisions about their own bodies or many things. But yes, yeah, about many things for sure. But like, specific to this, within this context, early in our transitions, we are viewed as women and therefore viewed as incapable of having like, I don't know, having the, our own ability to do this sort of stuff or to like, trust how we feel to be real.

You're clearly mentally unwell if you want to transition. That's the argument, right?

Yeah.

Is that trans men have some kind of, like, they're not thinking sanely?

Well, that's, that's all trans experience. I think I just, like, I find at least within the dominant sort of vocal and like the political space, trans women are viewed as, you know, being.

Well, there's, there's a predatory element.

Being predatory yeah, that.

That they, they're. That trans women are actually men posing as, as women to try and get into these access to women's spaces, whereas.

Trans men are viewed as, you know, just silly little girls that don't know what they're doing.

Yes. Yeah. And that. And then, then therefore erased and invisible.

Yeah. Like the amount of times especially, especially I remember seeing, like, sorry, like Jake J.K. rowling talking about how trans men are being brainwashed to believe that they're men. And, you know, like, that, that invisibility and that transphobia specific to transmasculine people, I think is something that can kind of go unspoken a little bit.

Yeah. And like, it feels like, because there's a lot of, like when we talk about. And this is kind of comes into erasure. The erasure element here and transphobia is that when the, the main dialogue in mainstream media is so focused on trans women, it does erase trans masculine experiences. But particularly when we talk about the bathroom debate. The bathroom debate is probably the most common place that I see trans men erased from the narrative because it doesn't suit. It doesn't.

It doesn't suit what these people want to talk about.

Yeah, the conservative, the narrative that these conservatives are trying to spin. Right, yeah. Which is that, you know, we need to make sure that people of biological, their biological genders is what's allowing them to access certain spaces.

So therefore, I went into a woman's bathroom right now.

Oh, my goodness. I would not.

I. I was three months on T and I got stopped by a cleaner when trying to go into the women's bathroom. Not even three months. No, I was probably a month on T and I was wearing a binder and had short hair and I got stopped from going into the bathroom because she thought that I was a young guy.

She thought. Correct.

I mean, yeah, but like, at that point, I had no facial hair, my voice was still really high. I, I went, oh, sorry. Like, is there something wrong? And she heard my voice and she was like, oh, no, no, you're. You're fine. Because she meant. And that was me. One month on T. Can you imagine me walking into a woman's bathroom now?

No, I wouldn't.

Like, nah.

Did you go through that phase where you accidentally started to walk into the wrong bathroom and then go whoops and then turn around?

There were one or two times where I was like, I, like, habitually went to walk into the women's bathroom and I was like, oh, no, that'.

I walked like halfway into one at some shopping centre, some Westfield and, like, I got in and I wasn't. I.

What?

I. You know when you're just like, I'm just going to the toilet. You're, like, zoned out. You're just mindlessly going to the toilet, which is what people are doing, by the way.

Yeah. You just want to pay.

And I walked in and I was, like, looked up at one point, and I saw a woman in front of me in the cubicles. And I was like, whoop. And stopped. Sorry. Turned around, walked out.

Sorry.

I'll just go use these uncouth other locations. Yeah. So, yeah. Bathroom debate. Trans men should use women's bathrooms. Sure.

You want some trans dudes that are jacked. Yeah. So jacked.

Terrifying.

Terrifying.

Being probably intentionally like.

Yeah. I mean, like, it's an intentional. Purposefully, like the. They're trying to access that hyper masculine and, you know, I salute them. That's some hectic work.

You can be guaranteed that a trans man's not gonna pee on the seat. And we'll wash hands when leave. So.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God, so many men don't wash their hands.

I feel like the bathrooms are gonna be a theme through this, these three episodes. Yeah, it's. Yeah. The bathroom debate becomes, like, completely useless when they're like, but what about trans men?

Yeah.

Because when you go, okay, okay, hypothetically, let's just say, sure. All right. Trans women have to use men's bathrooms now. Fine. But that means trans men have to use women's bathrooms. They completely and conveniently leave out this argument. It is so silly.

It's ridiculous.

And also, I think a big part of the focus on trans women over trans men. This is my opinion. I don't know. I'm not an expert on this, but my opinion is that I think it makes more sense to be trans man in quotations than trans woman, because it's about the proximity to power 100%. And at the centre of the power is cis white men.

Yeah.

Cis white straight men, specifically. So if a man wants to be a woman in quotes, then that's silly, because woman is not the power you're trying to approximate yourself to. It's man. So when women, quote, unquote, become men, that means they're doing the right thing by approximating themselves to masculinity.

Yeah, it's this patriarchal idea. It's ridiculous. I remember, like, it was one of the many, many, many reasons that it took me so long to come out was the amount of times when I was really young thinking about it, and people would say, oh, why wouldn't you want to be a man? Like, yeah, you have all the power. You can. You can do whatever you want.

I know plenty of CIS women who said that over the years.

I knew so many people that said that to me when I was growing up, and I was like, oh, well, that's just a normal experience. Then. Everyone wants to be a man.

Which makes it harder for trans mascs growing up, too, because you talk about things that would probably be, like, a red flag for, like, that person might be trans or might be questioning their gender, but really, then they're just being dismissed by, like, yeah, everyone wants to be a man because everyone wants to have the. The privileges of men.

Yeah.

You know, and then. Then you take, you know, 10 years longer.

Yeah. Yeah. It's probably 20 for me.

Gosh. With hierarchies, masculine hierarchy. So, you know, men. Men love hierarchy. Men love to be submissive. Men love to be dominant. Men, for some reason, really obsess over this. Women do not. We don't really. I say we.

We.

Yeah, I say we because it's still. Part of me. Will be forever.

Yeah.

But, you know, I don't agree with hierarchies. I don't believe in. There's got to be some kind of, like, dominant role and, like, hierarchical and institutions.

Ridiculous.

Doesn't work. It's not how nature works. If it was natural for men to be in positions of power, then why does it take violence to enforce it? It's not natural. Unnatural. But anyway, hierarchies. When I. When I see myself in male hierarchies, I haven't. There are some spaces where I feel like all men are kind of looking at me as some kind of, like, male leader. And then there are other times where I feel like I'm, like, part of some kind of pack situation.

Yeah.

Where there's, like, another. More loud man. Yeah.

Yeah.

And anyway, I don't really subscribe to hierarchies easily at all. No. I find them quite uncomfortable. But, Elliot, do you. Do you feel like you sit somewhere. Where do you feel like you sit somewhere with.

Yeah. Well, I mean, when I've been in working environments, I've typically been in management, so, like, there's been that sort of power dynamic that sits in place anyway. But I also think that it's. It's conflicting. Right. Because I'm a short guy. I'm five foot five. So there's that, you know, on paper, you'd look at me and you'd be like, oh, well, this guy's small guy. Not going to be, you know, top of the hierarchy or anything. But I'm also really self assured. I'm really confident in my, in myself and my abilities and what I can and can't do. And I think that within, you know, if you're in an event space or if you're trying to organise something, if you're, you know, whatever, that really puts me further up that chain.

Yeah.

When typically like I, I probably have no idea what's going on, I probably have no idea what to do and I'll generally look for somebody else to make a decision, but if somebody puts me into that place, I'll do it. But because of my self assuredness and because I'm. I have that understanding of my being.

Would you say you have big dick energy?

I think I do, yeah.

I think that phrases is old now.

But yeah, but yeah, I think that, I think that that puts me like in those situations. Just. Yeah. Puts me into that space. Not that I want to be in that space, but yeah. Yeah.

That's a slot you get put in.

It's a slot I get put in for sure.

People tend to walk around me on the street now, so that's kind of how I know.

Yeah.

Other men. So that's why I'm like, oh, yeah.

I will move away, I'll move out of the way for other women, but I won't move out of the way for other men.

Oh, for all the women who are listening, you should just practise like not moving out of the way when a man's walking towards you and watch how many of them hit you.

It's like that amount of guys that will try and like will walk into you because you don't move out of the way.

Yeah, I know.

And it's like because they just assume that people are gonna move out of the way for them.

Yeah, we do it all the time. Not even in speaking interactions. Ugh. Yeah, gross. Anyway, we've been talking about lots of things this episode. We've gotten pretty deep into like transphobia, erasure, masculine hierarchies, privilege, misogyny, passing, surveillance, all these kinds of things. And now we're gonna chat a little bit about the manosphere online and, and real world stuff. The manosphere, what is it? It's pretty gross. It's my take. But really the manosphere is. And I'm gonna read a definition by Know youw meme from 2015 from the book Simon James Coplin's the Mail Complaint. And it describes it as a neologism used to Describe a loose network of blogs, forums and online communities on the English speaking web that are devoted to a wide range of men's interests, from life philosophies and generations to self improvement tips and strategies for success in life, relationships and sex. Predominantly made up of men's rights activists, pickup artists, incels, and mgtow, which stands for Men going their own way. So I've been reading a bit into this. Mostly when I read, I'm mostly like my face is scrunched up most of the time as I'm reading. Like it's pretty gross, pretty icky. But the manosphere is targeting men everywhere. Not just CIS men, not just young men, all men and trans men.

Totally.

And they all claim there are inherent and genetically determined differences between men and women. They see men as inherently rational and logical, while women are irrational, emotional, and most of all hardwired to pair with what manosphere men describe as alpha males. Meanwhile, they believe society has always been gynocentric, a term that means focused on the needs of women. Ha. Is my reaction to that.

Definitely. Totally.

Yeah. So that's, there's a little bit of, a little bit of rundown of like what manosphere culture is, but also how like it's, it's affecting trans people. It's particularly affecting trans men, especially when I think about fitness culture and how you are, to quote unquote, look like a man and what a man looks like and how you must work out or exercise or so on whatever diet to be more of equal man or man. Yeah, I have many issues with this.

Oh definitely. It's, it's unhealthy. It's, it, in my opinion is the, like, it's there, there's a lot of eating disorders associated with it. There's a lot of, yeah, like body dysmorphia that comes from that dysmorphia, dysphoria.

It's, they're linked there in this fitness culture, particularly in the manosphere. And also having exercise can be a way, it can be good for mental health and it is good for mental health.

100.

I think that there is a point though, when that obsession can override ride the, the physical benefits of exercise.

Well, that's, that's what I'm specifically talking about, I think, is like the actual fitness culture itself. Like not, not fitness. Like not going to the gym, not trying to, you know, feel better in your body and you know, look better as a result. You know, if that's something you're looking for, that is good, that's fine. But the, the fitness culture that surrounds that. Like, you know, this performative, like you, you know, you've got to do these specific workouts, you've got to look this particular way. You've got to, you know, get up at 5am every morning and go for a two hour gym workout every day.

And vomit and cry and sweat.

Yeah, well, not crying.

Well, only if it's in pain from exercise.

Yeah, that's acceptable.

Yeah, acceptable. Men crying. Yeah. So you're right, there is, you know, there's a lot of this going on and also it's like kind of in your face. Ever since I transitioned, I find that whenever I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling right now. I look through my social media, I look at what's happening in front of me and I get a lot of advertisements for, like, how to make my bulge bigger. And like all these things are like, by the way, this is all gender affirming stuff. Like, it doesn't matter if you're a trans man or if you're a CIS man. These are how you affirm gender. Right. So how can you do things that make you more. Feel more like man?

Yeah. And it's so in your face. Like, I created a whole new Facebook account because they wouldn't allow me to change my name on there when I transitioned. Yeah, I know, Ridiculous. Yeah, but I created a whole new one so it's super fresh and you know it. I don't use it. I don't really scroll in there. It's just for friends and family and for contact reasons and whatever and. But when I do go on there, all it knows from me is that I'm a man and I am in my mid. Well, sorry, I was in my mid-20s when I set it up. I am now.

Not now.

Not there, not in my mid-30s. Yeah, but that's all it knows, right? So all I get is fitness stuff and. Yeah, like you said, like the erectile dysfunction stuff and you know, like all of this sort of, you know, manly man.

Women will love it if you do.

Yeah.

Did it insert. Insert capitalist product here.

Specific clothing. Like a lot of. Oh, my God, the amount of like Assassin's Creed esque jackets and like, like real insane.

I get like there's like this clothing company at the moment that's like trying to advertise these really tight kind of shorts to emphasise your. Your legs thick. Because you obviously go to leg day. You do leg day, right? And then it's like all you need is 5 inches is the quote. Because the short leg is a 5 inch short leg, knee or something. And I'm like, what is. I can assure you that I don't have five inches. I don't need any inches whatsoever. I'm fine, thank you very much. I don't wear pants. But the point is, it's like, why you. It's targeting men because it's marketing, because capitalism is evil, but also because you're more of a man when you do these things. That's what it's trying to tell you.

It's trying to say you're less of a man if you don't do these things.

Yeah. So spend money. And it also kind of like exposes misogyny in a way, because it's not. It's not considering. It's not considering its audience. I think, like, if it's targeting to target men about clothing is kind of good luck. I mean, most of them struggle with clothing anyway. They usually get underwear at Christmas and that's about it. My experience of men with clothing. But that's just the men I know. But, yeah, trans men don't really fit into this dialogue quite often. We don't really fit into there. So we're not really buying into this aspect of capitalism. And we're also like, a lot of trans men that I see, a lot of young trans men really want to be really buff and really fit and want to emphasise all these, to like, feel more masculine. But there's actually a really famous quote, I closed the book, so I'm gonna flick really quickly to find it. But good job. It's to do. It's to do with, you know, like, when we focus on our appearances so much, we're not actually paying attention to who we are because we're focusing on how we're being perceived, which is important for dysphoria. And that's. That's legit. Like, we, you know, we want to be perceived in red as who we are, so we change our appearances. That's the whole trans experience, really.

Yeah.

To have our. How we are perceived reflect how we feel.

Everyone wants to be perceived in the way that they feel they are.

Yeah. Can you imagine a God forced to wear pink and light bright colours that poke off? Yeah, please, where's my mascara? I don't want to wear this. That's it. It's about aligning to your identity. It doesn't have to be gender. It can be other thing.

Yeah.

But yeah, this quote is body is what the powerless work on when they have nothing else. And I think that really lends Itself to a lot of the gym bro culture that affects trans men, which is that, like, hey, I think these guys are really obsessing over their body because they feel like they don't have control over anything else. Because your body is a thing that you have control over.

It's the only thing you have control over. In some, in some instances, therapy is.

Also a really great way to navigate your feelings. Not just like exercise therapy or sports therapy, but psychological therapy and just talking to each other. I want to know. I mean, I do this with the men in my life, but I don't know if, you know, you fellas out there listening if you do this with the men in your life, but when was the last time you asked him, like, hey, how you doing? Like, really, like, how is life? Are you doing okay out there? Like, what's going on?

Yeah.

When have you asked anyone, any man in your life that question?

Yeah, like, get, get into the weeds a bit, you know, really, really see how they're going.

Yeah.

Be like, what's, what's actually going on?

Oh, you know, just, you know, did this and my kids did that. No, no, I'm not talking about other people in your life. Talking about you.

Yeah.

When, when, when. Talk, feel, talk, feeling. It helps anyway. Do you have things to say, Elliot?

Yeah, I think, I think that it's really important to have a community, build community.

And, and, well, yeah, online communities. You were saying that you struggle with the online. What is it are you struggling about with, like, finding online communities?

Well, I just don't really have an online community.

What is your community? How do you, how do you survive?

I have real, real world community. So, you know, I have a lot of really good friends and, and, you know, people in my life that I engage with probably less than I should. Sorry, everyone. But, you know, I have, I have real world people that I try to engage with, which is where I have, you know, my validation and, you know, have. Have community that I, you know, that's where you connect. That's where I connect and find my support. And a lot of people don't have that privilege, you know, for whatever reason.

Or maybe people aren't out and they're like out but online, and they're online in these certain groups. Like whether it's a discord server or Facebook group or.

Yeah.

Or something.

Yeah, yeah. So I just don't have a lot of experience trying to build community online, you know, So I don't. It's not something that I can really speak on a lot. Like, I know that there are communities online. You know, you've got your Facebook groups, you got your Discord servers, you've got, you know, pages and things that you can frequent. But it's not something that I've sought out. So it's not something I can give advice on.

There's this. There's a Facebook group that I'm in. It's called. I think it's like men, a group where men complement each other for no reason.

That's cute.

That's the group I'm in. I can recommend this group. It is a very trans inclusive and it is a group of just men where they make posts where they talk about. Took some new photos of myself recently. Would love some confidence boosts.

Yeah.

And it's just these really dorky, awkward men just being like, please tell me I look good.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's so important.

Like, I have had conversations with guys where they will talk about a compliment that they got seven years ago.

Oh, my Lord.

Because it's the only time they've been by a woman or by somebody in their life.

But you know what?

By a random.

The thing is, it's super hard to compliment men because you compliment men, they immediately think it's sexual. And that's how. Like, that was my total.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so, yeah, I, I find it a lot easier now, you know, and. And I've had to shift the way I compliment people since transitioning.

Yeah, same.

You know, when I. It was presenting as a woman, I used to be like, oh, my God, you know, you look fantastic today, you know, whatever. To other women. Now I have to be very specific.

Because they squint at you, like, because they get.

Now are you trying to hit on me?

Yeah. No, that's not what I'm trying to do.

But I have to do it. Oh, my God. I love like your hair colour is banging super cool. Or like this, that earring that you've got. Oh, my God. Where'd you get it?

Yeah, can I.

Whatever.

I want to buy it.

I want to buy it. Or you know, and with men, I think being hyper specific, like, oh, wow. Like, I love this shirt, you know, Are you gay? Like, this shirt looks great on you.

That's not the point.

Look, I might be, but I'm not.

Just like the shirt. Gosh.

But yeah, I think, I think that taking the time to compliment people is so important.

Compliment. Look in the mirror and compliment yourself. Women talk about like, there's like, you know, maybe not so much self help. Maybe Self help, but like body positivity. Body positivity stuff. And when you're, like, feeling particularly critical about your image, like, I know that there's a lot of things typically targeted towards women, but very much like looking in the mirror, saying nice things about yourself and complimenting yourself, pretend that it's.

Somebody else in the mirror.

Also, would you talk to yourself the way that you talk to anyone else? Because that's another thing too. I wouldn't talk to my friends half the way that I talk to myself sometimes, you know? Yeah.

When you're feeling low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to pretend I don't anymore because I feel good in myself, but I used to pretend that the person in the mirror was somebody else. And that was the only way I got through the day half the time. But I used to pretend that that was somebody else and give that person compliments because, you know, it helps.

Yeah. Wink at yourself in the mirror and laugh at how bad it was. Yeah, that's a great. I do that regularly. Gosh, how many genders are there?

I don't know.

I just got here. You're listening to transmission on 4ZZZ. It is now the end or wrap up section of the show. We're gonna wrap up our part two of It's a Man's World Transmission series today. And Elliot, you were gonna ask me a question.

Yeah, I was. I just want to flick back to online manosphere and online communities. How do you suggest we find better community if that's not a thing we already have?

Like, online.

Yeah, yeah.

So suggestions from EZ on how to find, like, inclusive, trans. Inclusive communities. So make your gender the thing that you're focusing on when looking for an online space to engage with. So if you're like, I'm looking for FTM or men's spaces more broadly, and you start following all these different men's groups, I actually recommend finding something that you know is trans inclusive or trans positive or trans friendly. Like, an example would be Baldur's Gate 3, a video game that has got trans characters and trans dialogue. Trans people made that voice, acted in that. It's got a lot of, like, our community involved. So that's something you could use to pivot. So, like, for me, I go, okay, well, I like Baldur's Gate 3. I'm gonna join the Discord server for Baldur's Gate 3. And then I'm gonna start chatting in there. And then you make friends in there and you can almost. You have a pretty high likelihood that the people in that space are going to be trans inclusive because of this particular common interest. Totally Same thing for music. Maybe there's a band you really like. An example of a band that's really cool could be Moaning Lisa. Melbourne based band. Very sapphic, very lesbian, but also very trans friendly. Very trans inclusive band. And so the community that follow Moaning Lisa are probably going to have that same kind of ideology. So finding something that's not necessarily your agenda.

Yes.

The common interest point and then branching from there is my hot tip.

I totally, totally agree.

Yeah, it's easier, actually. It's less pressure.

It's a lot less pressure. And there's. Yeah, like you said, a lot less focus on specifically being a man. And you kind of move away. You kind of shift away from that quote unquote manosphere.

Yeah.

That fixation on what it is to be a man or, you know, or be a woman. If you're, you know, a trans woman looking for female space.

Yeah.

Or whatever.

Women are far more likely to be welcoming, in my experience.

Yeah.

I want to leave on some quotes from a particular. I'm gonna say like a social media influencer. His name is Nick Escalderen. And these are just some quotes. So it says this is just. This isn't just a trans experience. A lot of men, both CIS and trans, grow up feeling like masculinity is something to perform instead of live. Letting go of that pressure changes everything. When I feel secure in my masculinity. At first I felt like I had to prove something. Not to others, but to myself. Every detail felt like a test. How I walked, how I spoke, how I dressed, how I reacted. Especially before starting T and the early years on T, I was defensive when people said I still looked or acted feminine. It became clear to me that I was performing what I thought masculinity should look like. I stopped comparing myself to other men, CIS or trans, after realising that masculinity doesn't look the same on everyone. Letting go of the pressure made masculinity feel more natural and not forced. Real masculinity isn't about trying, it's about being aligned with who you are. The more I embraced my whole identity, the less I cared about anyone else's expectations. That's when I felt I finally felt secure in my masculinity. Now I define masculinity on my own terms, not as something I perform or prove, but as something I simply am. So there you go. Thanks, Nick. Good stuff. Yeah, just be you don't worry about this gender stuff. It's silly.

Anyway.

We are gonna head off pretty soon, but before we do, you should absolutely subscribe to 4zzz and keep shows like Transmission on air, including Megahertz, Culture, Vultures, all these fantastic shows that you get to listen to. You can subscribe by heading to 4z.z.org au support. There are a myriad of different subscription packages. They're all for the year. And it means that you just like, yeah, you keep literally keep the lights on, keep the air conditioning going, which is very appreciative today.

Oh my God. So appreciative.

But also it pays for the equipment so you can hear us and pays for our staff that help support over 200 volunteers that work at the station. And we're volunteers as well. So, yeah, subscribe. Support what you love. Support the trans community by subscribing to 4zzz as well. You can totally do that. 4z.org.au and you can follow Transmission on a bunch of things like podcasts and stuff. You can head to Trans with a Z Radio on social media to follow our pages. And also if you're a podcast listener, please rate the show. Give us like five stars or something equivalent to five stars. So five, six stars around there. It helps. It helps people search us in an algorithm. So if there are other trans people out there who are trying to find our podcast, if you're rating it and reviewing it, it means that it's likely to show up in their algorithm. So it means that Transmission can actually transmit further, so to speak. Thank you so much, Elliot. Love you, dude.

Love you.

Love you so much. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us every Monday live on 4zzz from 10am or listen to our podcast on the community radio plus applause.