At 4zzz, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging of the Turbul and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded.

And we stand in solidarity with.

On4zzz amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond. Wow. You're listening to Transmission of 4zzz. My name is EZ, I use heathen.

Pinhom and my name is Elliot. I also use he him pronouns.

It's a he him show.

What a dream.

Yeah, that's it. And it's. It's the third episode and final episode of It's a Man's World. Today, Elliot and I will be chatting all things about trans men's experiences, navigating from living the life perceived as a woman and experiencing the world as women and then moving into men's spaces and what that's like, unpacking it all. So stick around because that's what we'll be chatting about today. But first, first, we've got some week in community news and events to update you on Elliot. Take it away.

Take it away. So there has been a new court challenge over the Queensland gender affirming care ban. The Queensland's government is facing a fresh Supreme Court challenge over its controversial ban on gender affirming health care for transgender and gender diverse young people in the public health system. Lawyers from the LGBTI legal service have filed a new judicial review seeking to overturn the state's directive that stops public access to puberty blockers and hormone treatments for under 18s policy. Critics say that denies families and clinicians the ability to make vital health care decisions. Parents and advocacy groups, including Parents of Trans Kids Speak out, are backing the legal action, saying the ban is causing heartbreak for trans young people and their families who are being forced into costly private care or travel interstate for treatment that medical experts regard as essential and life affirming. Queensland's health minister has amended the original directive days before the first court challenge, but opponents argue this did little to address the underlying limits on care. The transgender young person bringing the case shared the following statement. To have our medical decisions made after years of consultation with specialists, therapists and family overturned by a political agenda is shameful and crosses a multitude of boundaries on human rights. We will keep you up to date on the case as we hear about it.

Yes, yes. So that's latest news there. What's happening in the state of Queensland. Also, concerns grow over access to gender affirming surgery after Hobart private hospital sale Catholic health care provider Calvary Health Healthcare is set to purchase Hobart private hospital from struggling operator Healthscope, securing the future of the 146 bed facility but raising serious concerns about continued access to gender affirming surgeries. Calvary, which already operates hospitals in southern Tasmania and Launceston, does not provide several lawful medical services currently offered at Hobart private, including gender affirming care, surgeries, also IVF and abortions and I also believe vasectomies. Advocates warn the change could leave transgender and gender diverse people with fewer options for essential health care. Psychologist Yali Wilson says the stakes are high, stating we know that these surgeries are life saving and that delays result in really bad mental health outcomes, increased self harm, depression and anxiety. The Australian Medical association is urging urging Calvary to introduce exemptions to ensure these services can continue in southern Tasmania, warning the public health system does not have the capacity to absorb additional demand if private options disappear. While Tasmanian Health Minister Bridget Archer has welcomed a sale as a way to stabilise private health care in the state, critics note the deal would make Cauvery the sole private hospital operator in the region, raising ongoing questions about patient choice, access and the future of gender affirming healthcare in Tassie.

Also. Mardi Gras board faces backlash over the trans inclusion dispute so so the Sydney Again lesbian Mardi Gras board has been facing strong backlash after refusing to act on member pass motions from the festival's 2025 AGM calling for stronger public support of transgender and gender diverse people at the 2026 festival. Critics say the board's decision to ignore the operational parts of these motions, including encouraging parade participants to highlight trans rights, sends the wrong message at a time where trans communities are facing increasing political and social pressure. Pressure Activist groups such as Pride in Protests and Mardi Gras members have described the move as deeply disrespectful, accusing leadership of turning its back on the very communities Mardi Gras was founded to represent. Mardi Gras organisers have defended the decision, saying the motions are non binding and the programming choices must align with governance responsibilities and long term strategy. However, tensions within the organisation continue to grow, with some members calling for an extraordinary general meeting to hold the board accountable and demand stronger commitments to trans inclusion. The controversy has reignited debate about Mardi Gras role in both a cultural celebration and a platform for the LGBTQIA Advocacy.

More advocacy for trans people please. Everywhere if you can. I would love that also. Community Survey in our Words, the country's longest running LGBTQIA Youth Survey the In Our Words Survey, an anonymous national online questionnaire run by the Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society at La Trobe University. It's part of a major research programme into the health and well being of LGBTQIA Australians ages 14 to 21. The survey asks about identity, physical and mental health, experiences of discrimination and access to services, all to build a clearer picture of how young people across the country are faring and and what support they need. These surveys are repeated over time to track change and help shape better health policy and community services for queer youth in Australia. Young people who identify as part of the queer community and live in so called Australia are invited to take part online. It takes about 20 to 30 minutes. It is completely voluntary and anonymous and the data collected helps inform governments, health professionals and support organisations on how best to improve programmes and services. To complete the survey, head to the Transmission Socials at Trans Radio Trans with a Z. Click on the link and contribute. I'll cheque that up there for you all if you would like to go and do that does really help.

Oh yeah, having that kind of data is vital.

It is, yeah. It helps in. Yeah, just make better decisions and also get a more accurate reading on how to tailor the support to the community need as opposed to just making assumptions. That's why data is good also. And the last thing Pink noise Valentine's so Saturday 14th of February, Lovers Day, also known as Capitalist Lovers Day, from 6pm at the Cave Inn will be Pink Noise Valentine's, which is a celebration of love, the myriad forms it takes and the way it weaves throughout our lives. Songs of queer joy, romance, last friendship, family, heartbreak and loss filtered through the lens of our diverse community voices and shot like an arrow into our heart. No matter who you love or how you express it, you're welcome here and you are loved. Presented in partnership with LGBTIQ friendly owned and run venue the Cave in and proudly supported by the Revive Live Fund, Pink Noise Valentine's is free entry and yeah, they've got the actual they've got. Featuring acts from Love Thrills, Brainy, Alice Salt and Steel, Cat Flowers and Violet Salt. Also, the Cave in is a wheelchair and disable friendly venue with a fully accessible toilet available on the ground floor.

Oh brilliant.

Yeah. Head on down. Saturday 14th yeah. This episode of Transmission it's a man's world part three bodies belonging and reimagining Masculinity in our last episode of It's a Man's Power, Safety and Conflict, we explored what it means to navigate Risk hierarchy and survival inside men's spaces. The constant calculations around visibility, safety and when to speak up or stay quiet. Today we're taking the conversation deeper into the body, into belonging, and into the question of what masculinity actually becomes once you're living inside it. Because entering men's spaces doesn't just change how others see you, it changes how you move, how your body is read, how you relate to yourself and where you're allowed to belong. From locker rooms and gyms to workplaces, dating and everyday public life, masculinity is experienced not just socially, but physically and emotionally. For trans men and trans masc people, this often means navigating new expectations around strength, size, voice, emotion and desirability, while also carrying histories, identity and ways of being that don't always fit narrow ideas of the Aussie bloke. In this episode, we're exploring what it feels like to inhabit masculinity in the body. How belonging is negotiated and sometimes withheld, and how trans masculine experiences open up space to reimagine what masculinity beyond dominance, silence and control. I'm your host, ez, joined by my best mate, Elliot. Hi. As always, we're not speaking for all trans men, trans mass people or CIS men. This series reflects our lived experiences, how we question, reshape and survive in so called Australia. So let's get into it. Bodies, masculinity and difference. Ah, let's talk about it. Hair. There's lots of it.

Oh, they do warn you, you know, they do warn you when you first, they go, hey, this is gonna happen. And you go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and then you're still shocked, you're still shocked by the quantity. Yeah, yeah.

And where you didn't want it to grow anyway. That's not, that's definitely not the main part of this section of the show. But bodies, masculinity, difference. Yeah, Trans men's bodies and men's bodies. Obviously hormones have different effects on things and I'm just looking at my notes here because like sometimes I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to say, but my notes are always catching me. How men's spaces create narrow body, body ideals. Size, strength, voice, hair, dominance. Not dissimilar to women's experiences. Yes. So I wanted to touch on how men have. I don't, I don't know if it was always like this, but it feels like increasingly more like we critique men's bodies as harshly as women's bodies.

At times I feel like it's definitely gotten more, I don't know, present in media, I think because of social media, like, you know, Instagram models and fitness.

You know, the reels on my, on my Instagram are just like men who look like they have no body fat.

No body fat whatsoever. And also no hair.

No. Oh, really? Oh, like hairless bodies. Hairless? I thought you meant like.

No, no. Bald. No, I'm not talking about balding people. I'm talking about like body hair.

Everyone's like one punch man. Smooth.

Yeah, I mean that's just the ads that I get, to be fair. But yeah, yeah, it's super present and.

Also particular styles, you know, like, like clothing and I don't know, it seems to be really ramping up a lot more. But yeah, also hairless. I mean, one thing I will say, just because I've lived, I've lived this and I feel like I'm entitled to make this comparison. But before transition and when I was living up to European standards of beauty for, for women, there's a lot of shaving and grooming that goes into, into that and it's a lot and it's daily and you've kind of got to police yourself, but women also police each other on this. And then in men's spaces and with the way that things are now, have the amount of body hair some men have and then the social expectation on them to wax, I feel like it has increased.

Like it's not, I don't feel like it is. I don't think it's like broad like within regular men's spaces. I don't think, you know, people, you know, I don't think some sparky's getting told by his, his mates that he's.

Gonna everyone but like not every man.

I do think that it is becoming more obvious like on like in social media and, and within sort of that influencer space or, or it's got a.

CIS gay feel in a straight sense, in a straight setting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I definitely think it's becoming more, more present. But like I, you know, I transitioned four years ago now is when I started and four and a half and I felt an immediate like literally within a month of me starting to transition, I had an immediate shift in my own self perception of what my body should look like or is okay looking like.

Oh, explain more on what you mean by that.

Well, I've always been a little chubby. I've always had a bit of, a, bit of a belly going. Not, you know, nothing crazy and nothing I should have ever been ashamed about. Not that you should ever have shame about your body, but you know, you have these weird.

You weren't feeling a huge amount about the time.

Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel great about my body. I didn't feel great about how it was perceived, how I perceived it. But then when I started being read as, you know, male or you know, as a, as realistically as like a 16 year old boy, I immediately had the shift of being like, completely fine with having a little pot belly, you know. And expectations are different. Yeah.

Or there are none.

Yeah. Because, yeah, it's like, ah, I've just got a bit of a dad board going.

Hahaha. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like desired.

Yeah.

Or more desirable or more acceptable.

Yeah, it was. It's such an interesting shift in, in how. In those expectations. I think.

I also think I got a note here that's like how bodies are read differently depending on race, disability, size, age and status. Right. So like trans status in the sense of like how well you pass. Maybe you don't pass in some situations, but you do in others and so on and so on. So you have these, like you're reading, you're reading things there. But like, I'm very heavily tattooed and I have lots of piercings. So I find that people tend to move. Men, other men tend to move around me, particularly the Fortitude Valley train station. And I'm like, oh, that's very interesting. Whereas like six or seven years ago I had men trying to grab me at clubs and bars and all these sorts of things. Completely different. Totally different.

Completely different experience. Yeah.

Now they, they. I don't think they game to look at, hold eye contact with me for very long. Which is bizarre because like you move from this like whole whole way of experiencing the world where you are. Public property is how I would describe it. And then now I'm one of the people that are determining what's public property.

Yeah. Yeah. It's such an interesting experience. Yeah. I always thought that my height would be a real issue. You know, I'm five, five. A lot of my family are significantly taller than me, particularly on my, on my dad's side. Like they're all very tall people.

The jeans.

It's the jeans. I just didn't get that. You know, I got, I got my mum's jeans.

You know, the one trans guy in the family is short.

Yeah, yeah. I'm super short. So I was like, I had this expectation that I would not pass ever, because I'm sure I'm short. Or if I did pass, I would not have respect given to me as a short guy because of height, because of these expectations.

Height's a big thing. It's a big thing.

A lot of men have a lot of big, A lot of hang ups about their height. You know, you get, you see five, five, nine dudes or five' ten dudes, like amping it up, being like, oh, no, I'm six' five.

I'm definitely six' one. Even though you're five' nine.

Yeah, no one cares. No one cares. I'm. I'm five' five. Not a single person has given a crap. Like, you know, I was like, oh, I'm never gonna be able to date. You know, people aren't gonna find me attractive. Women, women always want tall dudes. That's not true.

That's not true.

It's not true at all.

I read somewhere, and I don't know if this is true, but I read somewhere that people who are taller and bigger in mass actually have a lesser life expectancy.

Yeah. I think it's like dogs. Sorry.

If you're a Great Dane of a man, I've got news for you. You've only got about four or five years, but yeah, no, height is a big thing. I am like smack bang average height for a woman. And that's fine with me.

Yeah, that's fine with me.

Height is whatever. I don't know, I'm so unfazed. No, but that's not something that I've had a self esteem issue around, so. But there are trans men do have issues with height and feeling generally. There can be a lot of insecurity around that, that I have seen. So please don't call any trans men any short kings.

Yeah. Unless it's like actively welcomed and spoken about. Yeah, no, not the vibe.

Just King is good.

King is great. Yeah. No, no, my hang up just came from the fact that my family's all six foot five.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you missed out.

I did. I did.

It's funny, my mom's side of the family also really tall German.

Yeah.

But then my dad's a tiny little native South American, so I'm like in the middle. I bounced out somehow.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, my mom's 5:2, so.

Do you have a question or do you want me to ask a question?

I was curious about how you feel, like, what pressure you feel to perform masculinity in a certain way. Like, and if that's like specific to where you are, who you're engaging with.

Like, you know, I only ever really perform masculinity. And like, when I say perform masculinity, I mean perform it in a stereotypical kind of like Aussie bloke kind of way is when I'm interacting with tradespeople or, or maybe a service provider or like a receptionist or someone that I'm not, I don't know, personally and, and I'm just interacting with them to access something. I will find myself maybe making my deep, my voice deeper or keeping my sentences shorter.

Yeah, just like in an attempt to gain more respect or just to pass.

And like move through this interaction to the next thing. Yeah. So I don't always want to engage and I don't always want to disclose that I'm trans.

Yeah, totally.

Actually, in fact, I try to avoid it unless it's absolutely necessary, which is a privilege, mind you, to be able to do that. So. But yeah, it still doesn't take away from a lot of the like, anxiety of being, you know, feeling like being found out or something. Do you feel like you have pressure?

I think sometimes, yeah.

I feel, feel like CIS men feel pressure too. Yeah.

I think it's just something that like, as being a masculine person, there's this pressure to conform within a specific range of that masculinity. I definitely fluctuated quite a lot in how I presented it when I was working in customer service. Dependent on who I was talking to. You know, if I was. And I think I mentioned this earlier in a, in a previous episode, I, you know, when I was interacting with women, I would really amp up the flamboyance and be less masculine. Whereas talking with, you know, real blokey bloke, I'd, you know, go hard with the more, I guess, like ochre accent and, and like, you know. Oh yeah, mate, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Or like the. If, if you're a man moving into a, into a bar or a space, for example, and there's only one other man there, you have this moment where you like look at each other and then you have like a little nod. Oh yeah.

Little head nod.

Little head nod.

We are both men.

Correct. That's what, that's what it feels like.

Yes.

It's probably also one of the most gender affirming things ever. This is.

Yeah. Getting those little head nods as a little acknowledgement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I'm trying to think of like, you know, when we. Bodies, masculinity and difference. There is a lot of variations in bodies with, with, with men generally. Not just trans men, not just CIS men. But like, generally, that was one of.

The key points of me feeling more comfortable in my body as a trans man was somebody said to me, take a moment, really take yourself out of the space and do some people watching and look at men's bodies. Look out for the things that you see yourself as having that, that is feminine, say like, you know, love handles or, you know, being a short person or whatever.

I got a bit of booty.

Yeah, yeah. Look for that in other men and you will see it everywhere.

Yeah.

Because men's bodies are all different.

Also, if you're looking, if you're a trans person and you're looking at your body in the mirror and you're looking for all the things that make you more or less feminine or masculine or whatever it is that you're focused on, you will find what you're looking for.

Yeah.

You will always find what you're looking for because you're trying. It's confirmation, it's. You're confirming your bias.

Yeah.

So if you're looking in the mirror and you're trying to find something that isn't right, you will eventually find something that you think isn't right.

Yeah.

And similarly you'll do the same. If you're doing that and judging other people by their bodies and their shapes, you'll be doing the same thing to them as you do to yourself. So you are your own worst critic and no one is looking at your body like you are because other people are too busy focusing on their body. So.

Exactly.

Don't, you know, don't get too hung up on those things. They will change. And if you're a trans masc person taking testosterone, the tea will do its job. It will eventually do its thing and.

It might take so much time. It takes time like it hit me quick, but it takes time and, you know.

Yeah.

And it's still going, you know, I'm four years on and I'm. I'm still seeing slight changes.

Yeah. We're technically still in puberty. Yeah. 30 year old puberty. Here we go. And we are now going to chat a bit about mental health, medical labour and emotional isolation. Trigger warning, content warning. Tuning in. We'll be touching on some vibes. Yeah.

It can be tough.

It can be. It can be.

What's your experience navigating medical stuff now?

Well, navigating medical things now. I mean, I. It's taken years, but I've got all my people.

Yeah, totally, totally. Well, what was your experience developing that?

Yeah. Well, so like most medicine and accessing medicine or Healthcare, it's always a bit of tweaking and a bit of tailoring. You know, you've got to find the GP that's right for you. You got to find the. The specialists that you require. But particularly for trans healthcare, these are systems that are hard to navigate and there are a lot. There's a lot of gatekeeping and there's a lot of discrimination. Yeah. And inappropriate questions and probing of, like, your behaviours, which have nothing to do with the decisions you're making. Psychiatrist appointments and assessing that. I know what I'm doing, so on and so on. I think a lot of the medical labour was actually like, the decision leading. Leading up to the decisions of making or being like, yes, I want to start T. And I want to have a medical transition experience. I did a lot of the labour in my head in the sense that, like, I spent years deliberating and debating on whether this is what I really wanted and if this is who I.

Really was for sure.

And so by the time that it actually got to, you know, the. The juggling of all the health care aspects, it was a lot of community really, like online asking in groups, like, how do I access this? Because there's no real. There's no real way of knowing if you don't know a trans person. That's why representation is so important.

100.

Because you don't. You don't. You don't know what you've got to do. Most trans people don't know that. You just go to your GP and ask and you say, this is what I would like. And all gps are, they can. They can tell you what to do, they can refer you. Every single one of them.

Yeah.

And if they're not doing that, that's because either they're uneducated or they're transphobes, is my answer for that. Totally. And they're gatekeeping you. So if you. If you're going to a GP and you say, hey, I'd like to transition, I'd like to access hrt, what's the next step? The GP is meant to refer you to a sexual health specialist. That's how that goes.

Yeah. That's generally the way it goes. Yeah.

And then also that GP can prescribe you your medication.

So, yeah, I. I kind of skipped the step of talking with my doctor.

You demanded.

I demanded? Well, yeah, I mean, like, I. I had just met you and then you told me how you went about it and I went, well, if that's the specialist that you saw, I'll go see that person. And I went to my GP and I said, hey, I want to go see this. This specialist is gender and sexual health specialist Stonewall at Stonewall Medical Centre in New Market. Yeah, well, he's since retired now, but there are definitely other. Other doctors there that are still doing good. Oh, yeah, yeah. But I went to my GP and I said this and he's like, gay? What for? And I was like, well, he's a gender and sexual health specialist. And he goes, yeah, what do you need to see him for? And he's like, well, I want to talk to him about potentially starting HRT because I have issues with my gender identity. And he's like, oh, okay, cool.

Here you go.

He's letter.

It's like, why? Yeah, but, yeah, that's pretty much how that should go. No GP should be asking you about your genitals or your thoughts or what pornography you watch or anything like that. It's completely un. It's act like that's messed up. If anyone's asking, it's wrong. Yeah, but, yeah, you. A GP is your general practitioner. You go to them with your general inquiry and they refer you on to the specialist. That's how that works. Mm. GP's surprisingly no less than you might think. Yeah, more than the general average person, of course, but. But not as much as you might think.

Yeah, I've definitely educated my GP about a lot of things. I tend to go to. I tend to go to my GP and go, hey, this is the thing I need. And he goes, oh, okay. So what's this all about? And then I have to tell him about this is.

CIS men don't have to do this.

No, no.

Does this man know what a doctor.

Yeah, like, he's great. He'll do what I ask. He's just not super proactive.

Yes.

Which is fine.

Yeah, Just read the line. The exhaustion of self advocacy within healthcare systems compared to CIS men's relative medical invisibility.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a vibe.

Well, the thing is, I think that the CIS men's relative invisibility is kind of self sustained. You know when a CIS man goes to a doctor and says, hey, this is a problem. He'll get tests, he'll get. He'll get exactly what he need, what he needs.

Let me get you a scan.

100%. A man goes in with his partner, his female presenting partner, and the female presenting partner says, hey, I want this thing. The doctors will look at the man and the man will be like, yes. Correct.

They'll ask probing questions again More probing questions. Yeah, unnecessary probing questions.

I could be wrong, sis. Men, if you believe that that is incorrect, please, I'd love to hear that.

Tell us your experiences at the time. Also, you know, carrying private health realities around with you all the time in spaces that, you know, an example of this would be like, I have to sit down to use toilet.

It's just like.

I mean, I could choose not to. I could get an apparatus that would otherwise allow me to stand up.

No, but then you have to, like, wash it.

I don't even deal with that, and I don't want to deal with that. Also, men's bathrooms are like, one of those places, like, you just don't want to touch anything for us at all. Yeah. I mean, you can touch the sink and the taps. They're usually pretty.

I mean, nobody else touches them, so you're good.

But, like, you know, we're always carrying around our private health realities. Also, for trans men, in order to transition, it's not just like one injection once. It's like every. Like, for me, I have an injection every 11 weeks.

Yeah, same.

Whereas some other people might be taking gel every day. So, like, it's a topical gel or a fortnitely injection. Yep. Some people have implants, although not necessarily in Australia.

I don't think we've got that.

I know they do exist. No, yeah, no, but they do exist. I know implants exist and implants for trans women as well, for things like puberty blocking, T blocking and stuff like that. There's a bunch of. There's a bunch of different things out there. I am not a medical professional, but these are just things that I've had to learn through navigating my own healthcare journey. Because there's no real, like, playbook or anything.

No, a lot of the stuff that I've learned, like, I stopped T for two months because I was told that it helps to stop scarring, and my voice got higher and I was told that that was not a possibility. My voice?

Yeah. You had a freaky experience. I haven't heard of that.

Yeah, but it's like, there's not enough research. No, you.

It's supposed to be an irreversible.

It's supposed to be an irreversible change. And my voice fully got higher back. Like, I got comments being like, wow, your voice is.

You're so squeaky again.

What's going on there? Like, you sound like a girl again. What's going on?

Yeah, yeah.

I was like. I'd been on TV for like a year at that point.

Yeah, yeah. Let's do you. Mental health wise. So moving out of physical. Mental health wise. And this is a question that I have that I've, like, noted because I wanted to ask, but in terms of, like, vulnerability and seeking, like, help and support and stuff, do you think it is harder since transition to ask for help now than it was before?

I mean, my. I think my experience. I think it's a really highly personal question. Right. Like, my experience is so different than my experience pre transition because I have a lot more fantastic people around me. Like, I've really cultivated a really good social community that I can reach out to, and it's taken me a long time to be okay with reaching out to people. Like, I was always a very independent person, so I actually have an easier time of it now. But if I was living a CIS experience and living a little bit more isolated in the way that a lot of. A lot of CIS men do, I would really struggle. Like, I see it. I see it in CIS male friends that I have that, like, my experience with them of being open and vulnerable and allowing them to be open and vulnerable with me has been a novel experience for them.

Wow, that's. So. Speak more, talk more, have feelings more.

Yeah.

And, like, body scan. Like, where is the feeling in your body? Things like that. It's so, so important. Do you feel like. Because, like, you. I remember you said that you really struggle with crying.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

And like, do you feel like you miss crying?

Oh, my God, yes. I. For the whole time, like, I've only recently started being able to cry again. I think in September was when I was able to cry again.

My start of crying date.

That was. That was my start. I have had it pinned to my calendar. I. Yeah, I. You know, it's not the release of the tears from the eyeballs. Right. Like, that's whatever. It's the actual act of being able to have a proper, full whole body. Like sobbing.

Yes.

Like, experience of release. I fully missed that. It was. It was a sad time.

It's good for you to do that.

It's so important. Like, there's like, the chemical ice cream.

Yes. Yeah.

Have a little treaty.

Yeah. And on the theme of isolation and, like, mental health and things, one of the really challenging parts about transitioning, particularly if you identified with the queer community before transition. So for me, I identified as a lesbian for, like, since I was 14.

Yeah.

And then transitioned when I was 27. So I've identified as a lesbian longer than any other thing, really. Maybe a child but other than that, you know, when I moved from lesbian spaces into trans masculine spaces, I experienced quite a lot, a lot of loss and distance from that space.

Yeah.

Particularly women centred spaces. It was very challenging because men's spaces are quite unsafe as a trans man. And then women's spaces become unsafe too because women tend to find all men. Hashtag all men.

Yeah.

Situation. So it can be quite challenging to know where you belong and also where you find community belonging 100% if you are but a single trans guy.

Yeah, I, I definitely, definitely vibe with that. Like, you know, we both had this experience of passing quite quickly and yeah. The, the only thing that makes me feel comfortable in queer and women spaces now is because I, you know, I've got a beard. I, you know, you know, pass pretty, pretty well. The only thing that makes me feel like I am not being like looked at as like a threat is if I can take my shirt off because I've got these big honking scars that out me, which is like a blessing identify. You know, Like I was like when I first, when I first got surgery, I was like, you know, a little scared of the idea of like having these big scars that I. That do identify me. Yeah. Because that can be a scary thing in CIS spaces, particularly if you're at the beach or.

At the beach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I was always like, oh, what if, like I don't want to get hate crime. Hate crime.

Yeah.

But it's been, it's been the only thing that makes me feel like I belong.

Now you're like, this is my. I'm proud to have scars. There's trans.

My little flag.

Cool. Like things I've done with this guys. Like my top surgery scars. You can't. They're not really there. I mean they're there if you look. But I have a lot of chest hair. Yeah.

Your scars are really quite thin and.

They are very thin. I didn't, I healed quite well, so I didn't have a lot of scarring, so. And actually annoyed by that.

Yeah, yeah.

Whereas. And I know some trans men have also like didn't get the scarf scarification that they wanted, so they actually tattooed the scars on, which is great. Like you know, trans pride right there. Yeah. I'm not going to shave my chest for that now.

That's a lot.

Yeah. Thanks.

I'm more meant that it was a lot of effort more than. There's a lot of hair.

Okay. All right.

We'll stop picking on each other, will we? I don't think so.

In Terms of, like, community loss and like, mental health stuff. I just wanted to, like, you know, what was the emotional impact of, like, moving out of, like, a lesbian space? Did you feel ostracised? Did you feel. How did you feel?

Yeah, well, I mean, I was always very isolated. Like, I isolated myself. I now realise that it was on purpose because I didn't. I wasn't comfortable in who I was as a person. You know, not to get too, too sad, but I was quite isolated. But I still did have that connection to, you know, queerness and, and lesbianism and that connection to being a woman. Because there's those experiences as a woman that you. You have that men just don't get, you know, like, stay with you.

Yeah.

And it stays with, like, that fear of walking alone at night. You know, I was followed home a couple times walking home from work. You know, like, we know what it's.

Like to have menstruation.

Yeah, menstruation. And like the experiences of being, you know, I guess, like rejected or disrespected in, in. In medicine or. Or in any. Anything, really. So I, you know, I had that connection to femininity and being a woman that I lost. And. Yeah, you do have to grieve that.

Oh, yes, I. I was devastated.

Yeah.

Because then when I like talking to men, I'm like, is this all you talk about? Like, just very surface level conversations a lot of the time, which was disappointing. I actually was quite disappointed. I think I realised one of the few places that I found belonging now isn't maybe so much necessary a specific kind of lesbian community, but it is a queer women's space. And those are the spaces that I spend a lot of time in now.

Totally. Yeah. I can definitely relate to that.

Old school dykes. You rock. You get it. You love trans men. You welcome us into the community, you make us feel like we belong. And also, it's super queer. Queer is, you know, not. Queer is quite an ambiguous term, which.

I like, but I feel like it's a state of mind.

It is a state of mind. It's a way of being. And it's also like, you know, it's not, quote unquote, whatever the norm, heteronormative. I don't know. That's such a small box to fit in. And even people who identify with straight and CIS struggle to fit into that box a lot of the time.

Sure.

For us.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like we're just so. We can't. It's just not possible to put us in there. That's why. That's why people are able to, like, clock you and go, you're weird, you're different.

Yeah, it's like.

Yeah, because we're not. We're not fitting into this, like, setting.

Totally. And I feel like, you know, the. There's a, you know, even, like, alt punks could identify as queer, even if they are CIS straight hetero, you know, that sort of, you know.

Yeah.

Alt punks still sort of fit into that.

You're different.

Yeah, yeah.

And they might even be read as queer.

Exactly.

Yeah. Did becoming more socially invisible as queer change your sense of belonging?

How do you mean?

So, like, did. Do you feel like being, like, invisible as a man or as a trans man or a queer person at times? Do you find that, like, be like, overall is your sense of where you belong? Like, how much has that changed?

Yeah, so, like. Yeah, it's. It's again, hard to say. Right. Like, I think so many of these questions are so personal and so defined by your individual experiences and who you are with socially, you know, what communities you engage with on a day to day. Because I didn't before. Now I feel way more connected.

So what you're saying is, is your transition made? Made? It meant that you could live your life more fully and completely yourself.

Yes. Yes, 100%.

Holy moly.

Whoa. What a concept.

Someone tell Tim Nichols.

Yeah, being able to be comfortable in my own body and with my own self made it so that I was comfortable engaging with others and engaging in community and being in spaces existing in the world.

Yeah. And like, you don't realise what you have with your gender identity until you're questioning it and it's. Or falling apart in front of you. Because so many, like, so many things that bring me euphoria or joy about being a man are not things that I think CIS men have ever spent much time thinking about.

I don't. I think it's just, well, they find the norm. It's. Yeah.

You know, like shaving. Yeah, I really enjoy shaving.

Oh, my God. The first time I got to shave and, you know, there was actual, like, proper facial hair there. It was. It took me back to being a kid and watching my dad shaved.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah.

Yeah. My dad's slapping brute aftershave onto his open wounds and being like, it's meant to hurt. I'm like, is it. Is it? Actually, you're doing it wrong, dad. But yeah, no, it's like, it's the little things that feel really nice and they're deeply personal.

Yeah. Yeah, I had a big thing about wearing shorts and seeing my long ass leg hair, you know.

Elliot, did you have any more questions or things or topics around, you know, mental health and.

Yeah, I guess, like, how do you feel regarding, like being, I guess like forced to be health conscious when CIS men are not?

I actually, to be honest, I don't have a problem with it. And the reason I don't have a problem with it is because I used to have a period. I used to have a menstrual cycle and that kind of forces you to pay attention to your body whether you like it or not.

Totally.

And you know, I actually quite. I actually kind of miss the cyclical nature of a menstrual cycle. Although I do not miss having a period.

No, I don't miss that pain.

No, it's not just the pain, but also like the mood swings and the irritability and then being like, why?

Oh yeah, I'm a week out woman things.

Whereas now I have a very consistent kind of like stable.

Yeah. There is a stability to the.

I have an 11 week cycle. Yeah, let's go with that. So I know when I'm feeling flat and I need my injection, but you feel it more than me and there's not, you know, blood in your pants. So it's a different.

The amount of pants I ruined. Yeah, no, don't use that.

And also like dysphoria plus menstruation is a horrible combination. So if anyone who has periods out there, it's already hard enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Let alone being like, I'm like disassociating even further from my body.

Yeah. I frankly actually enjoy having to get a forced blood test every six months.

You do?

Well, I like to know. I like to know my stats, I like to know what's going on.

Where's my vitamin D at?

My doctors are so proud of me. My vitamin D has, is solid now.

Great.

Longer. I'm no longer every time getting the little like disappointed stare. Like, have you been taking you out of me D tablets? Why don't you go outside?

What are you doing for 15 minutes hit today?

Yeah, totally.

Oh, it's good, it's good. Yeah. I think, I think the constant monitoring isn't necessarily a bad thing, although it is an inconvenience. And if you don't have like a bulk billing clinic, it can be. The accessibility there is challenging. I, I'm fortunate enough that I can go to a private clinic, but it does. Yeah, it costs, it costs money.

Yeah. Yeah. That is the one thing you know, I've got that, you know, 10 bucks, 10 bucks a month subscription fee to manhood.

Oh, we got text in. Oh, I read it and then disappeared. Loving the conversation this morning. I'd love to know how things have changed in terms of where you find gender euphoria during your trans journey.

Ooh, that's a good question.

It is a good question. First I'll answer.

Yeah, of course. You go ahead.

The first thing that comes up for me. Thank you, non sub for texting in. You should totally subscribe. By the way, one of the big things that helps with my gender euphoria early on was buying, like, baseball tees. The ones that kind of like have on the sleeves. They kind of like angle in towards your collarbone and it makes your chest, your chest and shoulders look broader. Yeah, that was awesome. That was like, almost like an immediate. I put it on and I felt, I felt better. So that, that was really early on. That was before testosterone. I just started binding. Binding was great too. But yeah, not a very comfortable experience long term with Queensland heat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And health wise, long term, wearing those was not great.

Yeah. And also things that have changed in terms of where I find gender euphoria. Like, before transition, I hated painting my nails and then I started becoming really masc and then I was like, oh, I love painting my nails. And that's considered probably a very stereotypical feminine thing. But, like, I find that so much more masculine now, which is quite weird.

Yeah, it's definitely interesting. I've definitely found that I find a lot more enjoyment out of, like, traditionally feminine things. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying actually shopping for clothes and stuff. Used to hate it. Used to hate shopping for clothes. Used to hate thinking about my body in any way.

Now you're like, what would make me look cute?

But now I'm just like, I could, I could, you know, I actually enjoy going to the shops and being like, oh, this would look good on me. Like, I, you know, and like, it's affirming to like have cuts that sort of, you know, make me look a bit more masc or, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's a nice time and yeah, for sure. Early, early transition, just having, having it, getting a haircut.

We've talked about barbershops.

We've talked about barbershops. Yeah, it's a great time. But yeah, like, getting haircut used to be a little bit scary, but was also really affirming when you walked away. And it was a good, a good solid cut, whereas Now I'm a little less. I'm more lenient in the way my hair is. You know, it's a little bit, you know, a little bit longer.

I think we can get away with having more messy hair as men now.

Yeah, them. Very true. Yeah.

Yeah. Can be really greasy and it's just a look.

Oh, I can't do greasy.

I don't think women can get away with having long hair and greasiness. My hair's quite long.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. But no, that, like, there were. There were some shifts in the way that, like, I got euphoria, but most of it was just like me being more comfortable in my body. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you look great. I know all the listeners can tell you look great. Thank you.

I gotta face the radio.

You. I was about to say you do without thinking, but people won't know you got a great face. And we are now going to be chatting a bit more about looking forward into the future, reclaiming manhood, responsibility, freedom, and also sacred care. What does it mean to be a man, Elliot? What? What?

I mean, we were talking about this before, and I think there's this sort of misconstrued idea that manhood equals power and therefore, like, dominance. And that's. That's not how I see manhood or, you know, how you see it, as far as we've discussed. I think that it means the ability to take care of others, you know, be. Be a protector of sorts. Yeah, I think that that's. Yeah, that's in my mind.

And what. And what it looks like, because when. Yeah, when we talk about. It's interesting because, like, when I've. On the outside of manhood, before I transitioned and before I knew that much about myself, when I thought about men, identifying with being a protector, I always felt like it came from a place of control, not a place of, like.

Well, that's what the society.

I want to listen to you about your needs, and then I will help support those needs, because that's protection.

Yeah.

So let's make that clear.

Yeah, yeah.

Because, like, protection doesn't mean making decisions on other people's behalf without their consent or understanding or ability or know how.

Yeah.

Protecting, in my opinion, particularly through the lens of masculinity, means to look out for others with their leadership and support them from underneath.

Absolutely. So, yeah, be a pillar.

Yeah. Be someone that can be. You know, to be a good man is to be a good person. Yeah. And that's kind of like, you know, we need to zoom out a bit more. I think when it comes to that sort of stuff and you know, masculinity is, to me, it's life affirming because of, because of my transition. And if you identify the same way, it would feel life affirming to you too. But it, it's not in relation to others. Like, my masculinity has nothing to do with comparison of other people, regardless of gender. My sense of self is my sense of myself, so. And it's not. Yeah, it's not rooted in dominance or power or control at all.

No, absolutely not. I, I, I feel like I had, I don't know, I had this. Yeah, I had the same, same problem. I had this idea of what masculinity was and, yeah, power and control over others and, and like this control through fear of others and then, yeah, stepping into masculinity, I now like. No, that, that's a choice. The men who do that, they are choosing to do that and that's not, that's not what masculinity is.

That's their personality or also socially conditioned into that idea.

Right, for sure, for sure, absolutely. Like there is this social conditioning through, you know, through media and through politics that men, they are actively in these roles and that is the purpose for them. You know, you see that a lot in, you know, male centric religions and stuff as well. Yeah, and patriarchal. Yeah, patriarchal society. Yeah, totally.

What storeys about men do you want to stop repeating in your manhood?

I don't know. So, so many, so many generalisations of. Yeah. Men being all knowing and, and, and, you know, having, having a greater understanding of anything else and everybody else's storeys just through the conditions of them being a man. Yeah, you know, that's just not the.

Being a man is not, is not a right to anything. No, same with being a woman. Being any, a gender identity is not a right to something.

Yeah, absolutely. I, yeah, I would love to hear your perspective as somebody who has a connection to your indigenous culture and like the differences between this colonial idea of masculinity and what you might identify through that.

Yeah, great question. So masculinity as a native South American is different because a man's role not only is a little bit more self determined, so it's individual in the same way that women have their own role that's also self determined. But, you know, a man's role is to really uplift and uphold knowledge and particularly when it comes to like country and things like that and land. You know, being a man is about protecting life and the sacredness of life. And one of the really big things about sacredness of life and creation is the womb, which men, Men do not have. So men do not get to determine how life is created because they cannot create life, they cannot grow life within them. So. Yeah, so. Well, typically, yeah. And that's kind of the relationship that a lot of, I think the, the binary structure that comes out of some first nations communities in South America especially, but also North America, which there, there can be patriarchal systems, so it depends on the mob that you're talking to as well. But in my, my community, that's not the case. Masculinity is about honouring matriarchy and honouring women, but especially honouring their ability to create and to create life and sustain life. And it's our duty to uphold that and to live, live with that. And it's not a hierarchy like, I think people. I don't know what this idea is where people like, oh, you know, if we, if patriarchy is destroyed, then matriarchy is essentially the woman's patriarchy, the woman's version of the same hierarchical structures, they're completely different, they are unrelated, they're cyclical and circular. Whereas patriarchy is like a pyramid with like levels of who's top, top of who. That's not how matriarchy works. And a lot of indigenous structures, particularly in native South America and some North American ones as well too, they focus predominantly on the cyclical nature of supporting and growing each other and through country and land. And that has nothing to do with who's better or higher than another and who has power or dominance over another. Those things don't exist. If there is anything that has power over, over humans, it's nature. And so if there is kind of any kind of hierarchy. But. Yeah, no, it's not, it's not like.

Yeah, it's more like a web. Yeah. Everything's interconnected and supporting each other through that structure.

Yeah. And our role is to. I don't know, I quite like supporting my, my elders and the older women in my community because it gives me purpose. And I think one of the big things about being a man is having a sense of purpose.

Yeah.

And belonging and feeling like you're contributing. And there are so many ways to do that without dominance and control. There's so many. You can listen. Listen is a part of power too. Listening is power.

Listening and learning. You know, knowledge is power. Right. Like classic statement and learning from the people in your life and the women in your life who so often get ignored is a hugely powerful tool, definitely, you know, in supporting and caring for others.

Yeah. Yeah, massively. Oh, gosh. Being a man is cool, though. Yeah. I think I like. I like the man that I am.

100% like the man that we've. The men that we've created within ourselves, I think is. I think that's super cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And look, any man can do this anytime. You can reinvent yourself. Yeah. And you also. One of the big things like that. I don't know, I think I asked this question before, but, like, about how, you know, if there's something you could change, you know, about men, like if there's a storey that we could change, not repeat as trans men. For me, hierarchies is that big one is one. But also, like, you know, listen to the people around you when they say to you, hey, you're acting this way. Maybe just take a minute to like, am I? Like, really ask yourself. Yeah, you know, what's going on? Because you might need to talk to someone. Yeah.

And sometimes you don't even realise. Like, there's been times where I've been called out for, you know, saying or acting in different ways, mostly just due to me being completely oblivious to the fact that I've accidentally interrupted people over and over again. Adhd.

Woo.

But, you know, listen to that. When people tell you that, go, oh, okay. Yeah, I'm gonna be more aware of that and. And pick myself up when I do things like that.

Yeah, it's good to catch yourself and stuff like that as well.

Yeah.

Oh, gosh. I'm trying to, like, imagine a world where people are people first.

Yeah.

That's kind of what I want to come. You know what? I'll be your man. My name is ez.

My name's Elliot.

He. Him times two.

Oh, yeah.

We're about to wrap up our series. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe it.

It's crazy.

Yeah. Time flies so much. Talking about being bad. I'm over it. I want to talk about something else. But in saying that, would we like to close off with any advice for trans men entering men's spaces? Fresh to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, like, I'm. I'm coming at it from somebody who's been in. In the space for a hot minute. And it's easy to lose perspective of what it's like to be fresh. Fresh faced.

Yeah.

Baby face. But, like, the best thing that I've got for you is come into it with confidence. You know, like they always say, confidence is key. And I, I get it. You know, it's, it's the same for a reason. Your, your contribution is important, your perspective is important and like, yeah, I've been accepted into spaces that I thought I might not be because I faked being confident.

Yeah. Sometimes you got to fake a little confidence and that's okay, but just build yourself up. Testosterone will naturally give you a big kick of confidence too. So, you know, trust that. But what do you, what do you think?

What are your, what's your advice for young trans people, trans men, going into this space?

More people care about you than they don't. People that don't. So I know it's like a pretty fearful kind of world out there, but you're looking online too much. Touch, touch some grass, go outside. People are actually a lot nicer than you realise. And when you're in front of them, people are more humanised and we have more human interactions because we have more human interactions than we don't. So, yeah, you know, yeah, be confident, but also like, trust in humanity. We're actually not that bad.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Engaging with people in real life is a huge, huge step into feeling better about the world.

Yeah. And take, you know, take some risks. You're changing hugely in a big way. That's also a great time to change other habits that you might have had in your life that you want to kick too. So. Yeah. And what about advice for CIS men wanting to do better and make spaces for more inclusive for trans and gender diverse people?

Two part.

Yeah.

First part, listen. Listen to the marginalised people in your life, listen to the women in your life, listen to the queer people in your life and really take on board things that they have to say. But also speak up.

Yeah.

Speak up when you hear something that isn't nice.

You know, don't be a bystander.

Yeah.

Unless you're bi then and standing around, in which case you're always a.

That's allowed.

That's fine. Yes. Also, my advice to CIS men is like, wear a pin, say something. You know, like maybe paint a single fingernail. That's fine. I don't know, there's ways of, like, quick coding yourself that makes, you know, people feel safe. Yeah. Also, having your nails painted doesn't just make you gay. I don't know if, you know, this was not really the qualifying factor.

No.

But, you know, just like explore your identity as much as anyone else's because it's all up for debate and a lot of the suffering that we have in the world is because men are also suffering.

So also, if you see something fun, you see an article of clothing or whatever that you're like, oh, maybe that'll make me look a little fruit.

Maybe I shouldn't wear that.

Get it?

Anyway, that means you should wear.

Have fun with yourself. A lot of people are not having enough fun.

It's true. Have fun. This life is too short.

Yeah.

And you're just in a meat, meat, flesh bag. DIY it. All right, well, as we close this conversation, we want to leave you with this. Being a man doesn't have to mean shrinking yourself into a narrow role. It can mean stepping back into your full humanity. Across cultures and generations, men have held power. Not just power over others, but the power to protect, to build, to nurture, to stand for something bigger than the self. Today, that power matters more than ever. Not to dominate, but to care. Not to harden, but to show up with responsibility, courage and presence. For trans men and CIS men alike, we have an opportunity to choose what manhood becomes. To move beyond inherited scripts and made up rules about toughness and silence, and instead shape identities rooted in connection to community, to country, to the earth, and to the sacredness of life itself. Because when men step out of rigid gender roles and back into relationships with each other, with our bodies, with the natural world, with the people and places that sustain us, something shifts. Masculinity stops being about performance and starts becoming about purpose. This isn't about perfection, it's about participation. Choosing to be part of something larger than ego. Choosing to protect what is fragile. Choosing to create space for life, growth and future generations. And in that choice, there is hope, there is freedom, and there is a version of manhood that doesn't just survive, it helps the world heal. And before we finish, I want to thank Elliot for sharing his experiences so generously. Masculinity is often talked about as something fixed or inherited, but this three part conversation reminds me especially that it's learned, enforced, and importantly, that it's changeable. Yeah. So thanks, mate.

Thank you.

I've enjoyed this. And for listeners, if this episode brought anything up for you, support links are in the show notes. And if you're a CIS man listening, consider what kind of men's spaces you help create and who they make room for. You can cheque out beyondblue. If you need to, call 1300-22-4636 or Q Life 1-818,527. Yeah, but those will also be in show notes too. Yeah, I've had an absolute blast.

Yeah, it's been really fun to talk about what it's like being a man and what's good about it, what is tough about it, how the changes have all shaped us.

Yeah. And it can be so much better. It can be so much better. And we're always going to be striving to improve who we are. Something my mum always used to say was, as before, you do things, ask yourself, will this make you a better person? And I like to think about that when I make tough decisions, particularly about our relationships and people in our lives. So will it make me a better person the way that I intend to act? I always ask myself that. But also a really amazing way that you could be a better person right.

Now is subscribe to 470Z support community radio.

Support Community Radio. It will make you a better person. It will fill you with warm inner glow and trans euphoria. Head to 4zzz.org au support. You can subscribe. There are annual subscriptions. It keeps us on air, it keeps transmission going. And also it supports the community that look after us. I want to give a special shout out also to Megahurs. Megahers had their 50th birthday over the weekend at the Cave Inn and I was present and it was fantastic. I saw Isis and Red Hill and Worm Girls were there as well, as well as DJ Margaret. It was actually a really sensational gig. Elliot, you were there too.

It was so good.

Yeah, I drank a lot of beers, remember that? But it was such a good gig and something that it reminded me of because I hadn't been to a Zed gig this year yet. I've been, you know, it was only January, so I guess I have an excuse. But every time I'm in a Ford Triple Z space, I feel so held. I feel so seen. I feel so safe. If you are a queer person or a trans person and you're looking to find community and you're listening, I cannot tell you how life affirming it is to be part of the 4zzz community and the people there. There's not a single time that I don't go to a 4XZ gig where I feel like I really am part of something bigger than myself. But also a kinship between announcers and volunteers and just the music scene. It's just such an extraordinary experience and there's nothing like it, absolutely nothing like it.

I want to also give a shout out to the fact that there is activities, you know, at the Megahertz thing, at the Megahertz anniversary, they had a little Zine station. So if you're feeling anxious about being in a space, maybe by yourself, it's nice, like you can just hang out and do some little crafting and make friends. Yeah, there's activities, low, low effort, social engagement.

The event is obviously gone now, so you can't get time and go. But it was fantastic.

There are options.

And yeah, congratulations to MHz. 50 years of feminist broadcasting is an honour to be next to your show. So, yeah, thank you so much for tuning in. Looking forward to next week and yeah, much love. See you later.

Bye Bye.

Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us every Monday live on 4zzz from 10am or listen to our podcast on the community radio plus. Sam.