At 4zzz, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging of the Turbul and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded. And we stand in solidarity with. On4zzz, amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond. Hello, good morning, mean. You're listening to Transmission on 4zzz. My name is EZ, I use he

him pronouns and my name's Hazel and I use she her pronouns.

And in today's episode of Transmission, we are exploring dating, romance, flirting and intimacy in trans and gender diverse lives. Spicy relationships can be complex for anyone, but for trans and gender diverse people, those experiences are often shaped by additional considerations, including identity disclosure, safety and the ways others understand or even misunderstand us. So throughout the show we'll be chatting, Hazel and I, about the realities of dating, building confidence and connection, as well as navigating intimacy on our own terms. We'll also also touch on topics such as communication, boundaries and the importance of moving beyond assumptions, including rethinking what intimacy can look like and challenging harmful dynamics such as fetishization. We'll also be sharing some practical insights for people who are dating trans individuals, as well as resources for listeners who would like to explore these ideas further. So it's gonna be funky.

Oh my.

Getting ready.

I love really setting the scene. I'm excited. I think it's going to be, well, it's going to be educational, it will be informative and.

But before we get too saucy, we should, we should get right into some news and community events which is completely relevant and a slight tone shift. So as usual for transmission, just like, you know, disclosure, some, you know, some trigger warnings, news around trans and gender verse, people can always be triggering. So please make sure to look after yourself and tune out for the next few minutes if you need. Would you like to read the first one?

Hazy I would love to. LGBTQ Australians warned of serious risks when travelling to the United States Equality Australia has issued a Travel Alert warning that LGBTQ Australians, particularly transgender and gender diverse people, may suffer significant risks when travelling to the United States. The advisory highlights concerns including potential visa complications, disposal, denial of entry and possible detention at the border. It points to recent policy changes and reports of travellers being questioned or refused entry due to discrepancies in identity documents, particularly where gender markers differ across official records. Equality Australia is urging travellers to carefully consider the circumstances before planning a trip, noting that these. Sorry. Noting that Those with a history of LGBTQ advocacy or political activity may face additional scrutiny. Equality Australia recommends seeking legal advice, reviewing documentation closely and weighing the risks before travel. The warning comes amid growing concern within the community, with some Australians reportedly cancelling trips due to fears about safety and treatment at US borders. For more information, you can head to equality Australia's website, equalityaustralia.orgau or follow their social media qualityaustralia and we'll link share a link on the transmission socials at Tranz Radio on Instagram.

Sweet. Cool. Make sure you're looking out for yourselves as you travel also. Queensland appeal overturns key ruling in drag storey time vilification case this is, like, not the most freshest news, but it has happened in the last month and Equality Australia has welcomed a Queensland Appeal Tribunal decision finding that a previous ruling dismissing a vilification complaint against conservative commentator Lyle Shelton was wrongly decided. The case was brought by Brisbane drag performers Johnny Valkyrie and Duane hill following a 2020 drag queen storytime event after Shelton published blog posts describing them as dangerous role models and comparing them to convicted sex offenders like Jeffrey Epspein and Andrew Whatever Tate. No.

Oh, there's more. Prince.

Yeah, yeah, that guy. Former former. The tribunal found the earlier 2023 decision was affected legal and factual and factual errors, including incorrect assumptions about queer identities and the nature of drag. The appeal tribunal also rejected the idea that homophobia and transphobia are no longer relevant issues, affirming that drag is a central part of queer culture. Advocacy groups say the decision is an important step in ensuring vilification laws are properly applied, though the case is not yet finalised. President of the LGBTI legal service Ren Shaik has said unfortunately the matter is not yet over, with the parties due to make submissions over the coming months so that a new decision can be made. However, this is still a significant win for our community. We thank our clients for their bravery and tenacity over the past six years, and they continue to fight to ensure that LGBTQ people are protected from unlawful vilification.

Well, that's great. Yeah, I like that that's heading in the right direction. And I also want to point out, it's kind of funny that if they want to compare drag performers to sexual assault as and paedophiles, they have to list a bunch of straight CIS white men as your comparison points.

Also, like, you know, in terms of the Epstein files, you know how many drag performers show up in there?

Not one goose egg. All right, and we have the demand for trans adult content rises as trans rights decline New report finds. A new feature from Playboy highlights a growing contradiction between the rising demand for transgender adult content and increasing attacks on trans rights. The article reports that trans performers are seeing significant growth in viewership and visibility online, with trans categories becoming some of the fastest growing in the adult industry. However, the surge in popularity exists alongside a broader political climate where trans communities are facing increasing discrimination, legal restrictions, social stigma, particularly in countries like the United States. The piece centres the voices of trans adult creators who describe a complex and often uncomfortable dynamic between desire and discrimination. While their work is widely consumed, many say they continue to experience marginalisation, harassment and limited protections, both online and offline. Advocates argue that the trend reflects a deeper cultural contradiction where trans bodies are fetishized in the media, but trans people themselves are denied rights, safety and recognition in everyday life.

Yes, and that probably nicely ties in with what we'll be chatting a little bit about throughout the episode today. Pretty relevant, yeah, yeah, super relevant. And yeah, so we're going to be talking about, you know, trans sex, dating, romance, flirting, all the things. And we will link back into some of. Some of what that means for us is a wider community as well as we chat. Also, we've got some community events as well coming up. So Trans day of visibility Trans Travaganza.

Well done.

Woo. World's largest trans flag. Tuesday 31st of March from 3pm at Davies park in West End. This is a completely free event, so come on along. This Trans Day visibility, Transjustice, meaning alongside community, will unveil the world's largest trans flag.

What?

And then you can stick around after that if you've got enough shade under the flag for a free concert with Clover Love opening for Wormgirls. So get on down to that two absolutely incredible local trans bands.

I'm a fan of both those bands.

Me too. I'll be there. Yeah. So get down for Trans Day visibility, 31st of March.

Totally. There's another event which is Pink Noise Easter, which is going to be at The Cave Inn, 47 Balaclava Street, Woolloongabba. And that's going to be on Thursday, April 2 from 6pm, another free event. Pink Noise Easter is your invitation to kick off the Easter long weekend in style, celebrate the diverse voices of our local queer community, eat some amazing pizza and a few drinks and relax. We've got your night covered. Presented in partnership with LGBTIQ friendly owned and run venue, the Cave Inn and proudly sponsored by the Revive Live Fund, Pink Noise Easter is free entry. Pink Noise Easter will feature sets from Margaret plus six of the Sun And Emmy hour music performing solo. The Cave in is a wheelchair and disabled friendly venue with access to a handy capable toilet on the ground floor.

Yo, I'm so keen for that as well. And also we were gooood a little plug for Marty Grasberg Drag Bingo which is coming up on the 28th of March. If you've got yourself some tickets, think yourself lucky.

Yeah, no, just sold out as of yesterday, so very sorry. We tried to be quick with that guys, but you'll have to stay tuned for future drag bingos and regional queer events from Marty Grasberg.

Yeah, linger around out the front of Brisbane Valley Tavern at 6pm on 28th March and maybe someone will give up a ticket.

Yeah, some generous people might help you.

Yeah, that's right. But now. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah.

Feels good.

Transmission.

What a delicious episode we have.

It's so delicious. You're listening to Transmission. Unfortunately. Z. My name is ez. He. Him.

My name's Hazel. She. Her.

She. Her.

Ye.

Her.

She Her.

That's.

We're getting pumped up.

Yeah, we should tell Salty from the rhinestone cowgirl about that. Yeah, we're chatting. Well, I mean it's pretty much just crushes, chaos and trans romance on Transmission. Today we'll be talking about, talking about dating and intimacy and all those sorts of fun things that trans people get up to when we're not having a crap time. And yeah, we're gonna be chatting a little bit about some of our personal experiences but also just generally like what's going on? Yeah. What's happening? And so you know, what's dating like, Hazel? What's dating like for you? Trans femme life.

Yeah, I mean it's interesting, right?

Yeah.

I'd say in general like to do a broad strokes and to do the sort of like mushy, happy kind of side of things first. Like being able to date as a trans person to like to be secure enough in who I am now. After my, my years of understanding myself as a trans person, trans dating has become such a like liberating and fun experience for me. It's been so affirming and to me it's sort of like after, after I spent so much time pushing back against negativity and finding myself amidst everything. This kind of feels to me like fruits of my labour. Like I get to, I get to enjoy being myself with other people, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Because you're like, oh, my body is mine.

Yeah.

And you know, I know what I do and I don't like. And you know, that takes you Know some exploring and nervousness, all sorts of things.

And being able to say, like, you know, I know what my body is and I know who I am and what I identify as, and I'm ready to let that be something other people can make meaningful comments on and actions towards and so on. You know, like to, to present yourself in a vulnerable way to other people, which is definitely scary. And obviously, as we'll go into as well, it can, it can put you in trouble as well. But in general, for me, I'd say first and foremost, it's been very liberating, very, very fun. I'd say it's probably one of the more fun elements of the trans identity for me at the moment.

Yeah. And I feel like dating while trans. And whether you're T4T, which for those who don't know, means trans for trans. Usually people who identify as T4T are trans people who prefer to date trans people. So we're going to talk. There'll be mentions of preferences and lots of different kinds of preferences that we're talking about here. Everyone has preferences. Just, you know, every kind of person will be like, you know, I prefer more feminine people over more masculine people, or I prefer ambiguity, ambiguity, or, you know, whatever. Everyone has preferences and they're completely valid. We're not here to yuck anyone's yum. We're not here to discuss what is or isn't okay for you. We're not, we're not here to tell you that.

Exactly. And it. We're. Well, I mean, first of all, I'll say if you do have a thought in your head, first of all, feel free to text it to us. We're very keen to hear from you guys today as well. This is a very community focused type of thing. But also.

Yeah, 04206-26733 is that number for you.

Thank you. As that's very professional. I should have hit that. But additionally, we've got two hours of this ch. I promise you, if there's something buzzing around in your head about this world of trans dating, whether that means you're a trans person yourself or an ally looking in, we're gonna talk about it. It's gonna come up.

Yeah. And you know, if you're, if you are a CIS person who is, you know, trans attracted or trans romantic, I've heard lots of different terms around people who have attractions towards trans people, but not exclusively in a way that you might think might come across as a bit creepy, but more just like naturally happens.

Yes.

Natural preferences that's what I'm talking about here. These are not unusual things. Yeah, trans people are sexy, I can say that. So, you know, it's okay.

I mean, I hope I've spent years, I've spent money, all that and I can't be sexy afterwards.

I've tried so hard. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, I guess you're. I feel like, I feel like CIS people probably have this issue where they're navigating the like, oh, I find trans people sexy. Oh, am I creepy? Like, right.

That, that fear of like, I mean, I'll say the word. The fear of the label of a chaser. Right. You know, like. Yes, you don't want to be a chaser. And that's true. You don't want to be a chaser. And, and there's that line that you're sort of coming up to there as where there's an idea of what a preference is, there's an idea of what you might be interested in or just innately pulled towards as a person. But that is very different to, to use another word, fetishization. That's very different to having this sort of approach to people that is harmful to them, that is damaging to your, your socialising with these people.

Yeah. Reducing a person down to the sum of their parts is not the best way to approach dating or flirting or interacting with people that. Or just, yeah, just trying to find someone to hook up with, hang out with or date or marry or whatever it is your goals are.

Yeah, I think because one of the, like to get into it quickly. One of the big things I think is important when we're talking about the idea of avoiding being fetishistic towards trans people is that you want to get heavily involved with knowing who the person is first and heavily involved with the person and see that. But that doesn't necessarily mean we're talking exclusively in this realm of romance or long term relationships or involvement. It, it true for hookups as well. There's this idea that you want to be putting that person first before you be, you know, diving deep into the, the physical intimacies of them.

Yeah. And you can also, you know, I think it's also important to listen to that person about their needs and what they're interested in, but also knowing what you like and being able to share what you like with that person. So that way they can also reciprocate. And that's doesn't matter whether you're CIS trans. You know, you. This is something that is kind of like a general rule. Absolutely quality in the bedroom, 100%. Yeah. Okay, I have a question here. How do you navigate conversations around genital preferences in dating spaces? So we'll straight into the preferences. Firstly, what is a genital preference? So for those of you, I mean, it's kind of very self explanatory. But for those of you who don't know, general preferences are essentially saying, I prefer, I don't know, a penis over a vagina. Very, you know, and I don't want to sleep anyone who has anything other than that preference that I'm after. Thoughts? Do you have thoughts on this, Hazel?

I like that. Nice deep end way to ask the question. Well, I think it would be wrong to paint a broad stroke over this. And I think it's worth quickly acknowledging as well that in the realm of preferences, even if you feel very strongly one way or another, we're all very flexible people. And especially in the world of trans people, there's a very flexible spectrum when it comes to how genitals are. But I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a preference. It's more to do with your conduct and more to do with the way that you're approaching the people you're interested in in reference to your preference. You know, it's absolutely true that some people have preferences. I know some people who have preferences and that influences they're dating. But it doesn't have to come at the cost of the individuals that you're seeking out to date. It's something that is.

Or to shame other people for maybe not having the things that people have preferences for as well.

Absolutely. You know, it may mean that you're incompatible with someone for sure, but I don't think that necessarily means it comes at a failing of you or that person as well. That's just sort of a reality of you two.

And you know, genital preferences are not unique to trans spaces. Genital preferences are also relating to. So I used an example with Hazel the other day where I said some women prefer big dicks over small dicks. And that would be a genital preference, in my opinion.

Amen.

Yeah, so. And because of that, you know, you might find that there are some men out there who feel like they are inadequate and ashamed and so on and so forth as a result of these genital preferences. Yeah. In trans communities we have a similar thing where we might be like we. Some trans people prefer people to have had certain kinds of surgeries or they're attracted to people with certain kinds of surgeries. And those things can also be financial Barriers and things that people may not actually be able to have, or maybe from a health perspective, might not be able to have. So when we're talking about general preferences, it's quite, oh, you've got to be careful about how you're speaking to people without trying to shame them. And also, I think one of the big things as well is that sometimes people have preferences because they feel inexperienced with things outside of maybe what they have experience with.

That's very true. I've definitely seen in other people this sort of idea that a trans person might be a safe way for you to explore something that you might have experienced.

That's pretty common, I think. Right?

Yeah. And that's not necessarily untrue, depending on your social situation. But again, it comes down to what are you actually seeking in this person? Are you seeking them as a person? Do you see them as more than the sum of their parts, or are you particularly just interested in their parts? You know, and maybe that's fine on

Grindr, if you've arranged that before you caught up, you know, you're like, okay, you're both signing up for whatever.

Yeah. This is where you're saying, again, it's the importance of the individual here. Different people are comfortable with different things. And there are, there are comfortable, well paced ways for you to discover that about each other, what you're comfortable talking about. And for a lot of trans people, like you said, as there are barriers to certain surgeries, there are barriers to certain treatments, or potentially there aren't barriers, aside from their personal desires with their own transition as well.

Absolutely.

And it's important that we don't view these as checkpoints as goals or as necessities of a partner. And if you're coming in with sort of an assumption about what's going to be the situation there, you're probably going to end up disappointing yourself. You know, you have to, you have to limit what you're going to predict from a partner if you're trying to interact with a trans person.

Yeah. And communication is really the key here. You know, we want to be respectful of each other. Everybody, everybody's body is different, regardless of gender, regardless of CIS or transness, regardless of surgeries. No surgeries. Everybody is different and everybody requires a conversation and an open minded, considerate, kind conversation.

Absolutely. And I think, I mean, that's. That is very true. I, in my personal experience, like, you know, there was something that I found fascinating was that I had an interaction with another trans girl who had been on hormones just as long as I But our situations downstairs, day and night, completely different from each other. And there's, you know, aside from the fact that we had communicated and knew this about each other beforehand, very little way that you could understand that just from assumptions or thinking, you know, what's going on. Because, you know, on the surface we're basically identical, you know, setups, but it's not, it doesn't carry out in a

sexual context because everyone has different chemistry and different DNA and all this sort of stuff. Everyone is different. And guess this, where it kind of comes back to, you know, look at the person as a person before anything else. All the, all the, you know, bells and whistles and, you know, all that sort of stuff is extra on top, but it's not always necessarily, you know, it's not the be all and end all.

Yeah. The idea that you'd be seeking someone for a genital preference first before you get to the, the actual person themselves, I think is where you're going to be stumbling into the biggest, you know, confrontations with people. If you're trying to interact with trans people, whether you're CIS or trans yourself, if you are clearly prioritising a physical trait about them before you're interested in who they are as a person, I feel more often than not you're going to be challenging the idea of who they are. You're going to be challenging the worth of them as a person. And that's, that's where a lot of that friction comes from.

Yeah. And, you know, my spidey sense tingles when that happens and I'm like, I'm sensing a red flag. Yeah, absolutely, we know. Trust me, we know.

We absolutely can detect it.

Yes, we can. We've got all those powers. Yeah. I'll ask another question. Kind of related, you know, since with genital preferences kind of moves into fetishization of trans bodies. And I don't know, what have you experienced or witnessed when it comes to these kinds of this kind of thing.

In my personal experience as a trans femme person, something that I feel comes a lot is just sort of assumptions about what I'll be interested in doing.

That's a good point. That's the same for trans guys. I have the same experience.

Absolutely. And in the world of trans femmes, particularly when it comes to, and this is just for the sake of example, when it comes to cisgender men who are interacting through apps or just online, one of the key things seems to be that they're. They're particularly interested in the idea of trans femme topping that's a very, very common.

Yeah, a stereotype.

Yeah, it's a common desire and like you said, a stereotype. It's kind of like an expectation they quietly feel like is going to be doable.

He's gonna ask me this question.

Yeah. And again, you can kind of see it coming a mile away. It's really clear in the vibes a lot of the time. But many trans women are just either not able to or completely not desiring to. It's not. It's probably about as far from a consistency as you could possibly get with trans femmes. It's very different for all of them. And so I think for me, the fetishization of a trans femme body. Yeah, that's what's come up the most, is sort of being seen sort of as a tool for a fantasy.

Yeah.

More so than as someone who might

have their own desires treated as an object. Oh, wow. Never heard of that before.

Yeah. Wait, is that gender affirming now?

Oh, no, possibly. I don't know if that's your perspective.

No, not really. I'm making a joke, folks. What about for you as well?

Yeah, well, trans guys, I mean, I don't know, I've heard stereotypes that trans guys are almost always wanting to be bottoms and to receive penetration in particular.

So. Interesting how it's the complete opposite there, Right?

Yeah, it's almost like it's genital based.

Right.

And then I've also heard other things as well, like in queer, lesbian, sapphic women's spaces. There's a lot of trans men in those spaces. And I find trans men in the lesbian or dyke butch scenes to be more top energy. But you know, I haven't gone around and taken a survey, so not too sure.

Yeah, true.

However, there are stereotypes for trans men as well, which is a lot of a lot to do with them wanting like the perception that they want to be penetrated, which is just not. Also not true. And also there are, depending on the trans guy, there may actually be medical reasons why they can or can't, you know, depending on whether they've had hysterectomy and any other kind of maybe bottom surgery options as well. You might find that there are different things. And this kind of comes back to what you were saying earlier, Hazel, about like, you know, you gotta have a conversation with someone about what they like for sure. And I would think that at the end of the day, if you're interested in someone trans or not, you care about them having a good time.

Right. And that's. Yeah, that's that thing of we can tell if you're seeing us more as a tool that you can access a fantasy through.

Yes, definitely.

It's, it's. It is obvious. And, you know, maybe you are in a situation where that's something you like. That's something the other person likes. That's not something that doesn't happen. It's more so that there are people who will just sort of come in expecting that, wanting explicitly that and basically nothing else. The. The conversating and the meeting up and everything else is just sort of a means to an end to get to that fantasy.

Yeah. And you know, what if we've been dating a while, if we're having a good time, maybe we've hooked up before, you know, and we're feeling good, you know, I'm happy with a little bit of, you know, sexualizing, you know.

Exactly.

Then it's different. Then it's like. Then you're in. Right, right.

Because that, again, is more about what you both want from each other. It's, it's. It's about knowing what each other desires. That's different. You know, there's. Yeah, it's the same as if you were trying to come up to someone with an extremely alternative taboo fetish. You don't open with that. That's not something you establish. I mean, depending on where you are, I imagine maybe if you're on FetLife, it's a bit different. But we're talking in the. In the general realm of dating. These are things that you learn about each other with intimacy and time, and that. That is perfectly fine. Yeah, you can have those desires.

We've just got a text in from Lara. How long should you wait before discussing medical history, surgeries, and preferences with potential partners, in your opinion?

This is a heavy one.

I don't know. I actually like discussing this stuff pretty quickly. Yeah, but that's me.

Exactly. I was about to give the exact same caveat. And therefore I think we should acknowledge that we do not have a great basis of experience to lean on here. But I've been in the exact same boat where all of my interactions so far have come, with me basically being immediately forthcoming with what my situation.

Yeah. I don't want to waste time because I think, like, if I don't say things quickly, then I'm like, okay, well, then I might disappoint them with the reality or whatever their expectations are later.

Right, right. There's some stress involved with that view, but that is a very different experience to a lot of other trans people. For example, I know some stealth trans femmes who go about their lives being assumed more or less to be a cisgender woman by everyone around them. It would be very different to enter the dating scene and suddenly throw away that lifestyle. So I think it's true that this is not going to be the same for absolutely everyone. And I think it basically should come at the point where you are comfortable with each other, you have trust in each other and you want that physical intimacy. But it also does depend, of course, again, on what your history is. You know, what, what are those surgeries that you've had? Is that something that's going to affect your intimacy with this other person? There are people who have had bottom surgery who then can have relations with other people who have absolutely no idea that they're a trans person.

Yeah. And I've heard many storeys like that.

It absolutely should not be on that person that they should need to disclose anything at all about their life. You know, it's. It's, I think, important to know that this is extremely contextual.

Yeah.

But if we're gonna simplify the question of how long should you wait before discussing it, I think you should basically wait until it's right for it to come up. You shouldn't push for this information from someone. You shouldn't try and fight it out of them if they don't want to tell you about it, and vice versa. You shouldn't offer it to someone if it's something important to you unless you're absolutely sure it's something you want to share with them. And if that means that physical intimacy is delayed by that, I think that's probably a necessary thing for your own health and safety.

I also think that if you're gonna ask about medical history and things like that, and maybe that's. Maybe if you're a non trans person, if you're a CIS person and you're dating someone who's trans and you want to ask these questions, and a safe way to do that might also be like, hey, I'd like to talk about these things with you. We don't have to talk about them right now, but I just want to flag that. This is something that I'd like to discuss because I want to respect your body and I want to continue dating you.

Yeah.

And what does that look like? You know, just. Anyway.

Yeah. As you work, you know, I think one of the things that has served me the best personally is just being incredibly direct about what you need and why you need it. And that can be Done softly. That doesn't have to be a harsh conversation. Exactly. Like you said there as. It's like, I would like to know this information at some point. You do not have to share it with me, but I have an interest in this, you know, and it's because I want to be closer with you and to have these kinds of experiences with you.

Explain and think for yourself. Why do I want to know this? Why is it important to me that I know this about this trans person that I'm seeing? And then articulate that. Tell that person, like, well, I want to know because actually I'm really into you and I want to make sure that I'm respecting your body and I'm not injuring you or whatever. Whatever. Whatever your situation is, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because it can be all super sexy if you let it.

These are the sounds of direct communication.

It's called a saxophone. You're listening to transmission on 4 triple Z. I am EZ. He him.

I'm Hazel. She Her.

And we've been talking trans dating. Sex, romance, flirting, all these fun things. Very sultry. Mm, Sultry Monday.

Yeah. Everyone knows Monday is the sexiest day of the week.

Absolutely. Start your week right, people.

Yeah. Wednesday, calling itself hump day with that stolen valour. Fundamentally unsexy day.

Yeah, it is just the word hump actually, is not really my vibe.

It isn't, is it? Makes me think of like a small misbehaving dog. It's not a good time. I don't know.

There must be some trans fans, masks out there upset about that.

I was gonna say, like, knowing this audience, I shouldn't have assumed everyone would find that not hot.

I. I think hump day. And I think of a camel.

Oh, okay.

I don't know how that happened. Maybe primary school. I think, like the middle of the week, the middle of the camel has a hump and then this dissociation.

I love that. I like that. Fortunately, after all that, you were able to give the world a very normal thought after the nonsense that I just spat out. So thank you for that.

You're welcome. Anyway, speaking of humps. Trans dating. Trans dating. Trans people 101. That's what I was gonna say.

That's what we're doing.

Yeah. And yeah, I guess this section of Transmission today I want to chat a little bit about tips, tricks. Maybe you have some tips and tricks, listener, for, like, you know, as a trans person. Or maybe it's this person who'd be like, oh, I found this was an effective way to flirt. Yeah. Let Us know. Yeah. If you're a trans person dating or want to Dr. Or want to date someone who is trans or maybe you're interested. Here's like, give me a couple of like little hot tips. If it's a trans mask, I like generally if they haven't had top surgery and it is something that you are unsure of, whether they're uncomfortable about, avoid that area entirely and don't mention it.

Makes total sense.

Yeah. Let that person bring it up on their own. However, if you are wanting to flirt with a trans man and maybe they have had top surgery, especially if they've had top surgery, they're likely to be quite happy with their very expensive new look. Maybe even just a gentle touch on the chest as you say something.

Right.

That's very effective.

That's nice to know.

Very, very gender affirming.

Yeah. Mix of gender affirming and also directly recognising specific efforts.

Yeah.

That they've made for themselves. Yes. That's really nice.

Hot tip. Yeah, it's effective on me. Just letting you know.

That's for you listeners. Feel free to text in if you are currently touching ez's chest.

I'll text myself.

Yeah. I mean on that similar vein when it comes to trans femmes and I feel this is especially worth addressing considering the world of fetishization around trans femmes gets really hooked on the genitals.

Yeah.

My apologies. Yeah. There's a very large amount of trans women who have not had bottom surgery because it is an incredibly expensive procedure who really do not like their genitals. So unless she's very forthcoming with being proud of or not minding or anything like that, she really. Take your time before you address that or pay any heed towards it. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's incredibly dicey territory. Territory for a lot of trans women. So really don't go in assuming that that's going to be something that she's rocking, proud and, and, and high energy with, you know.

Yeah. And also terminology. So when we're referring to parts of our bodies and each other's making sure you know the language to use. This does require conversation and you'll need to be brave.

Yes. You'll need to just sort of ask direct.

Yeah.

What do you want me to call it?

Ignorance. We can tell the difference between ignorance and just outwardly dickishness. So if you're asking a question in ignorance, you'll probably come across as quite sweet and open and vulnerable and we'd like that.

Yeah. That's nice. In fact, in a world like the world we're in right now, sweet, vulnerable, emotionally sensitive questions are real nice, I'd argue is maybe one of the better feelings out of all the feelings.

Yeah.

I mean, I will say when it comes to terminology for at least trans femme, genitalia, in my experience, a lot of words I really don't like. There's a bunch of nasty terms.

Yeah, there's a few out there, and

that's for me, like, I know that there's other trans women out there who are perfectly happy with some of the terms that I find really unappealing. So that is. Yeah, absolutely. Talk about that.

You may also find. So some. This is. I'll speak from a transmasc experience and just a little caveat as well. Hazel and I are talking about our experiences and what we know. We do not speak on behalf of all trans people. We are not monolithic. So yeah, you know, this is just these are our experiences. But I do find that trans men generally quite in flux when it comes to what terms they like to use. When it comes to referring to like their genitals, it can be typically CIS male centric language. So like cock, for example, dick, so on. But they may also prefer variations of that, like T. Boy. Dick. T Dick. Yeah, you know, and then there's other things too, where, like we just heard a song before, sorry, podcast listener, if you missed it, but Ezra, Ezra Mitchell has a song called Pussy Boy. You know, there may be some creative language that we like to come up with and terms that we like to come up with for sure. So always good to ask. And then sometimes I know trans men who are like, I'm totally fine with you saying vulva or a vagina, like that's fine. So you really have no idea until you ask these questions.

Yeah, absolutely.

Everyone's different.

Uh huh. And I think, you know, when we were talking about general advice in the first place, that very much works for me as a trans femm and I imagine for a number of other trans femmes, based on the friends I have and their experiences as well, is very. Being very willing to be very forward with how feminine you treat us like. It's kind of like what you were saying before, as a gentle hand on the chest is such a. A masculine sort of a way to show affection to a masculine person. Same absolutely works in reverse. If you wish to be, you know, outwardly respecting the femininity of the. The trans woman in front of you or trans femme in front of you. That's something that's like. Does wonders, you know, particularly like in environments with guys if they're going to be doing the classic gentlemanly things. Huge. That, that, that. That's amazing. If you're interacting with women as a trans woman and they interact with you incredibly sapphically with how they're after those interactions, not wanting something rough from you, but expecting a much more lesbian experience from you, that is huge. That feels really special and really empowering. That kind of stuff goes a long way.

Yeah. And similarly in reverse, I know a lot of trans guys who quite like, particularly trans guys who identify as gay and spend time in the CIS gay or gay scene. You know, communication is not quite as sharp as in the Sapphic scene. However, it doesn't. There are still loads of cues and ways that queer men communicate and interact with each other. And treating trans guys with the same kind of interaction is also going to go very far.

Yeah, totally. I also would like to coming back a little bit to like what we were talking about with terms for genitals and everything like that. We also were talking before about avoiding fetishization. It's worth acknowledging that for both trans femmes and trans mascs in the world of sexuality and pornography and so on and so forth, there are a number of kinks that share visual similarities or social similarities with transitioning that are not the same as transitioning. And conflating the two can go a long way to hurting the person you're talking to.

Yes.

For example, in the world of trans femmes, if someone is explicitly a trans femme, they see themselves as a trans woman. Don't call them a femboy. That's not going to go very well. Don't call them a sissy or a cross dresser. These kinds of terms I have absolutely seen thrown around and those are terms that other people do identify with. You have to be very specific when you use that language. And you can absolutely cause a big sting and very much invalidate the person you're talking to.

Yeah. And yeah, just be mindful not to reduce people down to stereotypes or boxes. You know, there's also the stereotype or the assumption that a lot of trans guys like to be referred to as good boy or a good boy. I think there is some kind of affirmation like gender euphoria relating there, which is good, but also just cheque before you start saying good boy to someone.

Because there's an implied dynamic going on there.

Yes.

Not everyone is going to want that dynamic.

Yeah, yeah. So you want to be careful about how you say those things. And yeah, terminology is unique if you're confused. Actually, I think there's a really good website somewhere on terms. I'll get back to you on that one. But there are some really good websites on, like narrowing down, like, what kind of terms are used in community and what they actually mean.

Yeah, totally.

So read up a little bit if you're unsure.

Yeah. Doing some research again, is also just a great way to demonstrate that you do care, that you're emotionally invested.

That's it.

If you come forward, presenting that you know of bit of this stuff because you've looked it up because you want to be emotionally sensitive, that can be meaningful. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, I just. I think there's also the fact that like, again, not a monolith. I feel like we say it every episode. The trans community is not a monolith. There are plenty of people who will like absolutely everything that EZ and I have mentioned not personally liking ourselves. And it's perfectly fine in a sexual context in the world of kinks and taboos, to be interested in things that you wouldn't socially be interested in as an individual. It's important to just know where those lines are and to not blur them. And this is what we're saying. When people fetishize us, it's like they're blurring those lines for us. They don't see that there's a distinction between what we might be interested in a sexual context and who we are socially as individuals.

Yeah. And for me personally, it makes me feel like, okay, well, I'm just a flavour of the night and not a person that is for every day. You know, you're treating me like a dessert that you don't tell everyone about. Yeah. Because you want that secret experience. And that's a really big thing. I know, like, for a lot of trans women, a lot of trans people who don't pass or are not clocked as CIS immediately have troubles like dating in terms of actually being seen together at a dinner. And I think that's really sad. So if you. One way to show a trans person that you really care about them a lot more than the sum of their parts is to take them out in public to dinner and treat them with respect and with adoration and listen to them. Yeah. Particularly trans women. Take them out on a date, dammit. Let them see the sun.

Yeah, absolutely.

And also, I think. I don't know when I first started transition as well, I was quite nervous about entering the dating space because I thought, I mean, a lot of my internalised transphobia. A lot of what I thought about trans people at the time was that, you know, we were freaks or, you know, we were unusual and all this sort of stuff. And so that kind of leads into it. So sometimes there may actually be a little bit of, you know, reassurance, more reassurance that you have to provide someone that you're attracted to them in some ways to help them feel more comfortable and settle into their transition or their body or the changes they're going through. Yeah.

And, you know, again, that willingness to be involved on that deeper level, that willingness to see that. Yeah. If you want to be involved in any way, but particularly in this realm of, like, if you want to be romantically involved with a transgender person, there's more investment that you need to do than you might have expected. You might have to be more considerate of mental health. You have to be more considerate of, like, you're saying, as just intrinsic fears about being in public that wouldn't have crossed your mind if you're not a trans person yourself. Being willing to put in that extra legwork is something that is incredibly meaningful.

Yeah.

To us as trans people. I mean, the. My beautiful partner, Lara, who I've been seeing for a long time, has known me since before my transition. And so to be with them from before to after my transition and them adapting to and understanding all those changes and then being prepared to support me when I am too anxious to be out in public and everything like that, that is so meaningful. And I feel incredibly lucky to have that kind of care. And as a result, I feel like we have an incredibly deep and close romantic bond. And that's, I think, something that's a bit unique to a trans relationship.

Yeah. And actually, I was gonna talk a little bit something more about that, but I will leave it until we come back.

Yeah. Feels good. Oh, yeah.

Transmission.

Wow.

Love this job. Yeah, you'll see the transmission. My name is ez. He. Him.

My name is Hazel. She. Her.

And we're talking intimacy, sex bodies, dating, chaos, crushes, all these things in the trans community. I'm talking from a transmasc experience.

I'm talking from a trans femme experience.

And we're lacking a bit of a non binary experience.

Yeah, we're both pretty binary with our experiences.

Yeah. Yeah. So I apologise the lack of diversity in this conversation.

This is accountability.

Yeah, yeah. But want to just like, have a little, like, you know, tip my cap to you non binary people who. Because we talked about terminology just before.

Yeah.

And I wanted to just touch on that terminology for non binary people. People who, you know, probably don't want to be called good boy or a good girl. Good person may not be the best alternative there. But again, want you to have conversations with your partner, your sexual partners, and discuss language.

A lot of these same rules apply. It's. It's.

Yeah.

You know, we spoke about what works for a trans masc in a binary sense and what works for trans femme in a binary sense. But really what. What's working for. For both of our experiences there is that someone is meeting us at where we are.

Yep.

They're identifying what we want, what we need. Affirmed, based, firstly, just on communicating and outlining exactly what you want, slash, asking what the other person wants. But also, in addition, just being familiar and doing your research and finding out and listening to shows like Transmission, for example.

But also, you know, you may also find that you get more confident in this area the more you date. You may make some stumbles, you may fall, you may embarrass yourself. And that's okay because you pick yourself up, you dust yourself off.

Amen.

And we keep pursuing the art of love. And. Yeah, it's. It's. We're gonna chat a bit more about something that I mentioned with Hazel and I, when we were planning this episode, was talking about, like, how sometimes there's this expectation with sex. And I. And I felt this before I transitioned, before I knew this about being trans. But there's this expectation that penetration is some kind of goal.

Right.

In a sexual encounter. And it doesn't have to be.

No. And it's. It's very heteronormative.

Yeah.

The idea that don't be straight, don't do.

Penetrate. Yeah.

Well, that the end. The end of sex. Like the most sex that you can have the most.

The ultimate 100% equal sex.

Yeah. The completionist of sex complete is. Is to do penetration. But I completed it. Yeah. Well, I mean. I mean, the whole talk about, like, first, second, third base, like a lot of the language around it. Yeah. A lot of the language around it in a heterosexual context is that. Yeah, that's the. That's the end goal. That's as far as you go. But obviously in a queer context, that's completely different.

And queers have been reinventing what sex is from the dawn of time. Like, I mean.

I mean, not even reinventing, but just discovering different ways that it is, you know.

Yeah.

Like, this is just kind of how it's always functioned for different people for a very long Time.

Queer iterations of sex.

Yeah.

The variations and.

Yeah. And. And, you know, as someone who has gone from being a guy in the past and being sexual and seeing myself as a dude and then moving into an environment where I'm not seeing myself that way and I'm not seeing myself as the penetrator, if that makes sense.

Yeah. The two genders, the penetrator and penetrated.

When you come at it from that new perspective, there's ideas that will it be a different experience? And it is. It's not a worse experience. And some of the most gratifying and satisfying and, like, holistic sexual experiences I've ever had are completely divorced from the idea of penetration. Absolutely not necessary for a complete experience.

Yeah. And it's also, you know, as you age. Because this happens to all of us. I hope it happens to all of us as we age or that we age is that, you know, when you're building intimacy with a partner and you're building on what sex really means to both of you in your intimate relationships, and if you have multiple partners as well, you have unique intimate relationships with each and every one of them. They're all different.

Right.

You know, and you can say that about exes, you can say that about current partners. Like. Like, there's no way you can compare these things, really, because they're just. They're different people, and different people have. Bring out different expressions of yourself. Bring out different parts of yourself.

Totally.

And so what you want to do is when you're having those conversations and you're establishing how you feel with each other, and then you start getting into a groove, and then you end up figuring out, oh, there's this thing that this partner of mine really, really likes. And you just know the buttons. You know, that person. It might take a few weeks, it might take a few months to get to know them really intimately, their body in that way and how it works, and then you're in sync and you're relaxed and you feel safe. Yeah. And then you have, like, these magical experiences that don't have scripted goals of, like, first base, second base, third base. What a home run is. What is this? You know, we're not. Yeah, we're just going off of what we also don't have, like, porn necessarily. Right. To, like, look at and go, oh, so that's how this happens.

Right. There isn't an industry of content establishing a strict set of trans rules. Yeah, absolutely.

And what exists is. Is for the male cis. Male gaze. You know what. In the. In the porn pornography space. Is not actually for trans people to consume 100%. It's for cis heteronormative male men to explore their sexual fetishization of others and other bodies.

Absolutely.

So we're creating our own journey, we're creating our own ideas on what sex and intimacy are and what feels close. And also when you are ageing, it's good to have had these experiences because penetration might not be on the table as you age.

I mean, the reality of, I mean, to get into that cross sectionality of disability as well, because a large chunk of the trans population are also disabled, a higher proportion than typical outside of the trans community, everyone becomes disabled. When you age. That's part of life. And knowing how to be intimate with each other, knowing how to find for yourself and for other people that kind of enjoyment without needing to rely on social scripts that were written for you in the 1950s.

Yeah.

Is huge. And again, I, you know, I started this episode by saying that for me, dating as a trans person has been one of the most affirming and liberating parts of the whole experience for me. Part of it is this. Part of it is knowing that I'm getting this completely gratifying and satisfying experience that is also completely individual to me. Completely new in that way.

Yeah.

I'm not retreading old ground that other people have insisted is the ground I should be treading on.

You know, you're doing trans sex wrong. Yeah. You know, like, I hope that trans people out there policing each other on this because it's ridiculous, but, you know, being able to build intimacy in that way, like you're saying, Hazel, you know, being able to like, explore with each other and as you age, as you find yourself in various stages of disability or capability as well, you may be capable of some things at certain points in your life and not others. You know, what this is, is you're actually building longevity of intimacy. You're making sure that your intimacy is actually about your connection with a person in a physical way that may transcend your body sometimes. And that's beautiful. And that's when you move into the places of love.

Yeah, and I. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to lean a bit back on what I said before, you know, long term relationship, pre and post my personal medical transition. That's. That's exactly what you're talking about. The, the way in which we were intimate with each other shifted and it changed. And that is super valuable. And also, you know, because of that willingness to change and to find new ways to do it also has Led to some of the most gratifying experiences I've had and probably wouldn't have had if I wasn't willing to explore myself in that way.

Yeah. And being able to feel strong enough to. Or willing enough, brave enough to be vulnerable to try something different is also wonderful.

Yeah.

And also, as your body's changing, as, you know, for trans people, as your body is changing, your sensation changes, your sense of touch changes, what feels good changes, hormones, you know, we're just a sack of chemicals, really. So as those chemicals change, as those hormones change in your body, what you might, like, completely change, but also it's totally fine for the partner that you're being with to also be like, hey, this isn't actually what I'm really that into anymore. What you're seeking is different from what we used to have, and I'm not really into that. And that's okay. It just means that you have a natural incompatibility.

Yeah.

And those are conversations that we have to be really to face as well.

Definitely. And it's hard and it's heavy, but it's. It's necessary. Because at the end of the day, especially if you were, you know, if you're facing that change in your relationship, you're in that relationship because you both care about each other. And sometimes enabling the best things for each other does mean that you're not on the same boat anymore.

Yeah, it does.

That can be really tough and. But, you know, it's not always necessarily the end of a relationship either.

No. It can reform, it can reshape. You can become friends.

Yeah. And at the end of the day, you know, you do not have autonomy. Sorry. You do not have control over someone else's bodily autonomy. If you're with a partner who needs to make a change that makes them no longer someone you feel like you can be sexually intimate with. That's just a reality that's going to happen. That's not something you have control over. That's not something that you can help them to avoid doing. It's just a reality that you both have to face.

Yeah. And there's, you know, it's nobody's fault. Like, you know, there's a lot of. I think when things happen like that, sometimes people feel like there's a point to blame or there's something to blame. There's nothing to blame there. It's just change is inevitable. Every relationship goes through transitions, some bigger and more notable than others. But, you know, it's all about communicating and being honest with ourselves. We have to be honest with ourselves too.

For sure.

So, yeah, keep that in mind. We are now coming to the end of our time.

We made it.

We did, yeah. Love, intimacy, sexy, romance. All those things was yummy.

Oh my. I have to. Sorry, compose myself again. Too distracting.

Recommended reading.

Oh God. Recommended reading. Don't say there's poetry in there. Good God.

Time for some research for some. So, yes, I've curated for some CIS folks and also trans folk, some resources. These resources are optional extras. You don't have to do this. Obviously. These are just. These are recommended.

This is not mandatory homework. We will not be tested.

Yeah, you will not be tested on this. But. So yeah, I've got some recommendations here. So one of them. So if you're. If you're a CIS person who is interested in dating trans people or have. Or is dating a trans person and you'd like to know some more things about the bedroom, there's a book called Trans Sex by Kelvin Sparks, which is a practical and affirming guide for navigating intimacy with trans partners. It is very basic. It is kind of like a trans 101. So if, if you are a trans person yourself, you may find this a little bit like no brainer obviously about a bunch of these things. But for people who don't know, this is like a really great entry point. So yeah. Transsex by Kelvin Sparks, another recommended reading that I have. And this is probably more for activists, anarchists and people exploring non traditional relationships. This kind of lends itself more into the. Some of the mental health spaces and like the psychological parts of a relationship. But. And this is also written by a trans guy. It's called. By Dean Spade, it's called Love in a Fucked Up World. How to Build Relationships, Hook up and Raise Hell Together. And it's a powerful look at relationships outside of mainstream norms, grounded in care and justice as like that main. So that's a really fantastic read.

That sounds super intense. Interesting.

It's not really a book that I recommend sitting down, reading front to back. It's more like go in. You might find a topic in the, in the table of contents that you like is relevant and then it's a good reference book. Yeah. Really?

Yeah.

Another recommended reading with more. More of a visual framework which is the Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord. Now if you haven't seen this before, it's a flexible visual framework for designing relationships based on your own values and needs. So essentially there's a. It's like a big circle and there's a million different circles inside the circle. And it says it in the middle. It says to form your relationships, you and another can pick any number of items from any number of platters on this smorgasbord, take a huge helping or just a scoop. The dish the two of you hold in your relationship. In your relationship. So you know, you've got things domestic power, exchange and kink. You've got communication frequency. So you know, you might be talking to someone daily, weekly, monthly. Is that that person you might have caregiving. So maybe you've got a partner that's, you know, kind of provides you with receiving, giving disability care, for example. You might also have a different person in your life that provides you with emotional intimacy or physical intimacy. There's a huge, it's a smokersboard, right? So smokersboard of all these different needs that you might have as an individual. And then what you do is you sit down with a partner or partners and you actually work out together what kinds of needs you are looking to have with each relationship. And this was also designed by, I believe a trans guy. I've forgotten his name.

That is really interesting.

Originated by Larisa Lawrence and Heather Orr of Vancouver. Polyamory. That's cute.

I like that. That's really cool. I really like that. And I love the idea of that. It's very kind of playful in its nature, but a way to structure and to figure out what you're after. I should also say, obviously that's in the context heavily of polyamory and relationship anarchy. But whether or not you know you're doing this, if you're in a monogamous relationship, you are quietly doing all of this stuff already or maybe sometimes not doing it when you should be doing it, because a lot of it is pre scripted for monogamous relationships and you've sort of been incepted with those ideas before you entered the relationship. So these kinds of texts are valuable for you as well, even if you're not polyamorous yourself because it teaches you about the fact that every relationship is going to have different needs.

And it's also a really great self reflective tool. You know, you can look at a, the, the relationship anarchy smorgasbord, for example, and just be like, oh, where do I get my emotional support needs in my life? Am I getting that from my best mate over here? Or where do I, you know, one part of this is like public displays of affection. Maybe you have public displays of affection with a friend. You could totally do that. You know, you could hold hands or Put your arm around each other in public. You know, is that something that you do with all your friends or just one of your friends? You know, this is about like looking at your own relationships and all your needs and it can be a very good self reflective tool because you can also look at this and go, oh wow. I actually realised that I have a friend that I do 20 of these things with, you know, and yeah, and then my actual close partner, it's just the physical intimacy. So you know, you learn a little bit about how you have relationships with people too. So yeah, it's a good tool.

Really interesting.

Also some recommended readings from the one and only Ray White, the local poet who knows it. This is some recommended readings from Ray. So Ray has a. There's a website called mirabellweather.com I'll put this link up as well in the podcast notes and also in the show notes on the four Triple Z website. And it's called, it's called Language Incontinence Fucking Trans Women, which is the zine about the sex lives of trans women by Mira Bellwether. So if you want to take a look, I recommend checking that out. And then also another poetry like anthology that Ray has recommended is called Effable A Spicy Anthology of queer crypt poetry, 14 poems. I also chuck that up as well if you're looking for some sexy poetry.

Love it. Very, very interesting, very exciting and like such a wide variety of ways to come at this from as well because at the end of the day this is all incredibly complex and we can give all the advice we can, but it's not gonna map to your situation. Exactly. Because every trans person is an individual and frankly every CIS person is their own enigma as well.

You know, that's it.

There's all of these different ways that we're connecting and figuring out how to connect with each other and I love it.

I love it so much. And you know what, don't forget to subscribe to 4zzz and support community radio. 4zzz.org au support every dollar matters, every subscription matters. And come into the fold of the warm inner glow of the Zed universe. We love it here and yeah, we love you. Take care of yourselves, look out for each other and we'll see you all next week.

Bye.

Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us every Monday live on 4zzz from 10am or listen to our podcast on the community radio plus applause.