At 4zzz, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging of the Turbul and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded.

And we stand in solidarity with.

On4zzz amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond. Hello, you're listening to Transmission on four Triple Z's Transmission all about amplifying the trans and gender diverse voices of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond. My name is ez, I use he him pronouns and my name is Elliot.

And I also use he him pronouns.

Oh my gosh. It's a he him show.

Whoa.

And yeah. So Elliot and I, we've got a very special episode for you today. It's the first part in a three part series called It's a Man's World where we will be talking about trans men's experiences and we will be some, you know, pretty general. We'll make this as CIS friendly, as positive as possible, but we will also be diving into the, into the weeds as well. So we've got, we've got quite a few aspects coming, coming forward. We've got one episode a month for the next for December, January and February as part of this series that we'll be doing. And also in case you missed last week's live broadcast, there was no podcast last week for podcast listeners, but we do. I just want to give you a bit of an update on some news in case you missed it. So content warning for the news as per usual with transmission. But yeah, so the Northern Territory has banned puberty blockers after Queensland's decision. So yeah, a second Australian jurisdiction has now imposed that ban in the public system, which is really awful and we'll, we'll dive a bit more into that in coming months as well. Also, New Zealand puberty blocker ban has been delayed by the High Court. So New Zealand's High Court has temporary blocked the government's plan to ban puberty blockers for young people experiencing gender dysphoria. The ban was supposed to go into effect on 19 December. However, the ruling. So the ruling was made on 17 December. Following that, Patha, which is the Professional association for transgender Health, Aotearoa, was filing for an urgent injunction and a judicial review of the matter, arguing that a ban would be illegal and unethical. The ban was initially announced by Health Minister Simone Brown on 19 November. In a statement, he said these changes are about ensuring treatments are safe and carefully managed while maintaining access to care for those who need it. The High Court in Wellington found that there was a reasonable argument that the planned regulations were unlawful in a judicial review sense and that the negative effect on mental health that the ban might cause was a far more immediate of far more immediate concern. Justice Michelle Wilkinson Smith said there's also no evidence of a particular need to act urgently to prevent new prescriptions because of some immediate risk to physical health if young people commence treatment transmission. We will cover more in detail on the situation Aotearoa in the early part of the New year we will have some guests in to talk a bit about how that system's working and what that might relate to here in so called Australia and what we can do as well. So we will update you on that internationally. Some news as well. Trump Administration Moves to severely curtail Access to Gender affirming Care for Minors so the Trump administration have announced a set of far reaching proposals aimed at sharply restricting access to gender affirming health care for trans minors in the United States, essentially blocking funding to hospitals that are providing gender affirming care at the moment. So without that crucial funding, it looks like that those pathways may no longer be accessible for trans young people in the U.S. additionally, in Texas they unveil a tip line to report and send pictures of suspected trans women using restrooms. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has launched an online tip line and complaint form to encourage residents to report people they believe are violating the state's new Texas Women's Privacy act, which is a law that restricts access to public restrooms in government buildings based on the sex of a person whether what they were assigned at birth. You can actually apparently upload details as well as five photos as evidence that someone used a restroom inconsistent with that requirement, even though taking pictures inside bathrooms is illegal under Texas law, so there is some extremely problematic segregation and targeting of trans people happening in the us. So please look after yourselves. If you have the opportunity to not look at your phone or be online, can recommend. The world is still very beautiful, the sun is still shining and there are lots of things that we can celebrate and find joy in. So please take a moment to recognise your present current moment of safety where you can. Yeah, so that's some news updates for y'. All.

This episode includes discussion of transphobia, misogyny, sexism, violence, abuse and experiences of exclusion and discrimination in men's spaces. We also touch on mental health, safety concerns and emotional distress. While we avoid graphic detail, some themes may be challenging. Please take care while listening and feel free to pause or step away if needed. Support services and resources are listed in the show Notes or you can contact QLife for queer peer support on 1-800-184527 between 3pm and 9pm or beyondblue on 1300224636 for around the clock Brief Council.

This series explores the lived experiences of transgender men and transmasculine people navigating men's spaces in so called Australia and online. From pubs, workplaces, public men's spaces, online culture and everyday social interaction. It centres personal storeys while examining how masculinity is shaped, enforced and challenged. You're listening to a three part series by yours truly EZ and Elliot. Both he him pronouns and this is yeah, it's a man's world. Get ready. This is a man's work transmission It's a man's world. Today we're talking about masculinity, men's spaces and what it's like to navigate them as a trans man or trans mass person. Men's spaces, whether it's footy club, a work site, pub or gym, an online forum often treated as neutral or universal spaces, but they're shaped by unspoken rules about who belongs and who and how you should behave and what kind of man you're allowed to be. For trans men and transmasculine people entering these spaces can bring relief, affirmation, tension and sometimes very real risk. This is the first episode in a series that centres on lived experiences, focusing on first encounters, learning the rules and early negotiations of masculinity. This is Entering a Man's World Part one with your hosts Me ez He.

Him and me Elliot also He him.

Yay. Together we'll be speaking about our experiences and as a disclaimer, we will not be speaking on behalf of all trans men, trans mass people or even CIS men for that matter. This series is simply about how we have explored, navigated, assimilated and deconstructed masculinity in our own way. Additionally, we may use language at times that operates within the binary. However, we want to acknowledge that non binary genders and the full breadth of gender diversity are well within this discussion. We primarily want to focus our conversation around how the world in quotations operates from binary perspectives, particularly in the mainstream. So we want you to know what we know about how masculinity operates when you arrive at it from the outside. And so that's what we're going to do. We're going to chat about our transitions, our feelings, we have lived experience as both living as and being perceived as women and raised as so called women. And how that's influenced us, but also how we've used that lived experience to inform us as we move into a new one. And so, yeah, first encounters, that's what we're gonna be chatting about right now. What are men's faces, Elliot? What the heck are they? Where are they?

They're everywhere. They're everywhere. They. They fill the world. It feels like as. As somebody, and I'm sure you can relate as somebody who transitioned, quote, unquote, later in life. In my mid to late 20s, you know, a lot of younger trans people feel like that's crazy late in the world. But I experienced the world from a female lens and it feels like a lot more of the world opened up when I became, like, presented as a man.

Yeah, is that. And it's so hard to know, hey, because sometimes you're like, is it because. Is the world opening up because I now am moving through the world as a man, or is it because I feel and move in my authentic self?

Yeah, with confidence, with. With the knowledge in myself and the confidence in myself. Yeah. And that's such a hard thing to unpack. You know, it's really hard to figure out if that's. If that's actually, you know, just the inherent misogyny of society or if that's just, oh, I was a little scared, baby, before, and I couldn't live in the world authentically.

Yeah. Yeah. I like to describe it as like I was living my life with the handbrake on. And then when I transitioned, the handbrake went down and I was like, oh, I didn't know that I was driving with the handbrake on. I was wondering why everything felt so against the grain. But yeah, it's like, yeah, men's spaces, you know, particularly masculine spaces, they very much operate differently. And Elliot and I have a bit of background in gaming and like the gaming world, which is a very much. Got a huge bro culture in it.

Yeah, massive. Especially, you know, you know, 10 years ago, very different from this day and age. Like, it's still present now, but there was a lot of, like, I remember, you know, playing online games and getting sexually harassed almost every day by people that were definitely 10 plus years older than me because I had a feminine voice.

I remember just like, even young, younger kids, like teenagers also, not, not just feminist slurs, but also racial slurs. Lots of things. It's gonna be quite a toxic space.

Yeah, for sure.

And that's quite sobering. I think if you're moving into gaming and things like that, you're like, whoa, actually this place is gate kept by this bro culture. And. Yeah. And how. How that impacts us as trans men as well. So we're going to be navigating, like, you know, we kind of police ourselves a bit too, I think, with masculinity and with passing. So passing privilege, or what passing is, is essentially the ability to. You're a trans person, you've started your transition and you are, in quotes, successfully passing into the binary. So when people see you, they go, oh, that's a man. And they might do that unconsciously. They use he, him pronouns automatically and they suspect nothing else about you other than that they assume that you are a CIS man. And that would be considered passing privilege. And that works alternately also with trans feminine experiences. And passing is a weird conversation to have. So we won't dive straight into, like, what passing is and why I. Why some people find that problematic. Which are all valid. They're all valid thoughts.

100.

It's just also, it's a reality that I think we live with, Elliot and I live with, because we do have passing privilege and we do enter spaces where men are having conversations about women, about life, about feelings. Not often, but they do sometimes talk about feelings.

Occasionally.

Occasionally. And we witness a lot of how men operate and navigate things and then. Yeah, yeah. Or don't navigate things. Yeah. And so, yeah, so this is kind of like I used to joke with my mum that I was a deep fake. I was like going in and like, sussing a little out what a men are up to. And yeah, it's. Yeah, there's definitely neutral spaces, supportive spaces, but there are also hostile environments as well that I navigated and continue to navigate. When do you. So, Elliot, I have a question.

Yeah.

Where and when did you first notice a shift in how you were treated?

The standout moment for me was I was at work. I used to work in gaming retail, and I had only been on T for a few months. So I, for myself, did not think that I was passing at all. I think I thought that it was pretty obvious that, you know, I was trans or maybe people thought that I was like a, you know, a butch lesbian or something. But I was working at a different store from my. My regular one and I hurt myself, like, not severely. Like, I just, I don't know, like, I think I dropped something on my foot or closed a door onto myself. Something silly.

Yeah.

And I just went, oh, damn.

Like, ow.

That really hurt. And I was working with a guy and he kind of looked at me funny for expressing that I had. Was in pain. And I was like, that. That sucked. That. That was a bit. That hurt.

Ow.

And. And he was like, oh, you'll be right. And, like, was like, really put off by the fact that I was vocalising my discomfort. But, like, literally just a few months prior, I had the very similar experience because I'm clumsy and I always hurt myself. And, you know, the first response was, oh, are you okay? Like, do you need anything? Like, you know, can I get. Can I get you anything? Did you cut yourself? Or, like, whatever. Like, the. The wild discrepancy in. In the response was really confronting for me because that was. This guy definitely thought that I was a man because of the language that he'd been using. And, like, he thought. I mean, he thought that I was young, but still, that was the big moment for me of realising I'm now presenting differently and I'm in a different world.

Yeah. And you need to. If you're in pain, you need to suck it up, be quiet, move on. You know, that's kind of, you know.

I talk about that.

Yeah, yeah. Don't. Don't exaggerate.

Yeah.

You know, that kind of thing. Exaggerating your feelings. You're meant to be silent when you're in pain, but. Yeah, that's a pretty. That's a pretty big one, though.

Yeah.

You know, which is also why that's. That's a very big reason why I haven't got back into sports since transition, because I'd have to be playing in men's spaces. And I'm like, if I injure myself and I squeal and carry on like I do, I will. That will probably not go down well for me. And I don't want to have to swallow my feelings about my body or my. Or anything. No, I've already done a lot of that. You know, like, trans person, we don't want to do that anymore. And it's kind of. Yeah. Do you feel. Do you ever have, like. Like, which spaces felt safest for you in terms of, like, during your transition? Like, do you have spaces that you feel are safest now?

Yeah, like, honestly, like, the. Much more, like, alternative spaces, like.

Not.

Explicitly queer space, like, you know, of, like, you know, people who are lgbtqa, but, like, alternative, like, you know, punk space.

Yeah.

Is usually where I feel safest. Like, where I feel the least safe is where it's very, you know, heteronormative. Like tattoos and funky piercings are abnormal. Like that's where I feel a little bit more out of place and I have to be a little bit more enclosed and careful about how I'm presenting or what I'm talking about or who I'm talking to or how I'm talking to them. But yeah, that alt space is always safest for me.

Yeah.

What do you reckon?

Yeah, I feel pretty similarly. It's interesting because like just recently, just yesterday actually flew back from kind of like a rural town in southern part of Tasmania, sorry, the northern part of Tasmania. And it's quite a big bro culture out there. It's mountain biking community and I had a blast. But I did find myself, people looking at me, particularly tattoos and piercings. I don't think. I definitely wasn't the only person with tattoos and piercings. I do. I have noticed that more men, particularly younger men, have more piercings and tattoos for sure. Thus making things, and this is in the mainstream and thus making it more confusing about who's queer and who's not queer, to be completely honest. So that's, you know, and where I feel like trans mass people are constantly like doing this assessment of like, am I safe to disclose or am I not? And if I'm not, I have to perform masculinity.

Yeah.

Because I feel masculinity is extremely performative.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. I, you know, like I said, I was in retail always, constantly shifting and changing how I'm performing that masculinity, depending on what level of masculinity I was receiving from others. Right. Like if I had some older bloke in his 50s or 60s, I'm bro and like I'm bloking it up. I'm putting on, I'm putting on my Aussie accent, you know, like.

Yeah. Becoming more oka.

Way more oka.

Like walking with a wider gate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like really putting it on so that he's feeling comfortable and like willing to engage and you know, because sales people, you got to do that. But you know, if I've got, you know, and it goes the other way too, like with, with feminine people, with, with, you know, younger women in their 20s. I am really amping up my femme, like the femme part of myself because, you know, we're all multi layered and I'm amping up that femme part of myself and I'm making myself feel less threatening and less intimidating and less masculine so that she's willing to engage and feeling safe and comfortable in my presence.

Do you feel that, like Because I've talked about this a little bit before in previous shows, but do you feel like that there's a difference between transitioning to a man, how women treat you now?

100%? Yeah, definitely. Like, I definitely have found a lot of people, like, I've always been very, you know, very welcoming and willing to have a chat and, you know, super, super friendly and engaging. Like, when I'm working or when I'm, you know, in that sort of social space. And in the past with other women, that was welcomed and. And, you know, people were really into.

That and, like, reciprocated.

Super reciprocal and. Yeah. But now that comes off as me trying to hit on them and me possibly being dangerous and me. Yeah, yeah, Me being a potential threat.

I find women actually just, like, don't make eye contact with me now.

For sure. Yeah, completely. Not really. Like. And I completely understand that. I'm not offended by that. I understand completely. I know where that comes from. Like, yeah.

And, like, women. Women are not making eye contact because eye contact with men is dangerous. And I know that. I used to do that. I used to be like, don't make eye contact with me because they'll just think you're hitting on them.

That's an invitation. That's invitation. Come in and have a conversation because you've engaged with them by making eye contact. Like, you can't do that.

And it's so depressing. So depressing because men don't actually make eye contact with each other. So what you have is, like, as trans men, you leave this world of, like, a whim, a women's world. You leave a women's world essentially, for sure, where there's this, like, sisterhood, which is actually, you know, women are kind of always looking out for each other. There is kind of, like, spotting each other. There's always at least one woman looking out for other women in the spa, in a space. And that's very comforting. It's also scary that you even have to do that with each other anyway. But then you enter a man's world and men are actually out to get each other as well, as women no longer want to engage with you.

Yeah.

And it is so isolating.

Can feel really lonely.

Very, very lonely. It's actually you're moving out of a place of community, which is what I would consider to a place of hierarchy. Yeah, Hierarchy and structures and potential threats of violence. Because the threat of violence for trans men, I think, is very present. Because if we're constantly trying to be like, oh, are we going to be Found out because I spent a lot of time going, oh, they're going to figure me out.

Yeah.

They're going to look at me, they're going to.

What's going to happen?

They're going to clock me.

Yeah.

And so we have this additional layer, whereas CIS men already have this fear of violence from each other anyway. So you have this additional layer of like men on men on men violence and then trans men hiding in plain sight. And so it's leaving one space into another.

Yeah, it's complex.

It is complex. And then when we talk about online communities as well, you know, when you start transition early on and maybe you're not always passing or you're nervous to go outside, wearing binders is super uncomfortable in the heat. If you're a binder wearer, you know, you spend a lot of time in online spaces and you're trying to find men's spaces and you can accidentally suddenly fall into a hole called the manosphere. Yes. Which we can. Which I'll talk a little bit about throughout this series, because it is relevant. And the manosphere doesn't just affect CIS men and young CIS men either, it affects all men. This is like a whole campaign of radicalising to the right and extremism. And so we're going to talk about the manosphere. If you don't know, the manosphere is it's basically a loose network of blogs, forums and online communities on the English speaking web that are devoted to a wide range of men's interests, from life philosophies and gender relations to self improvement tips and strategies for success in life and with relationships and sexual. However, most of these groups all really focus their energy towards feminism as the cause for their distress. And so there's. It's this black and white narrative, it's actually a very binary narrative that they use to justify a lot of why they do anything. And that is deeply and profoundly affecting men. Not in just the real world offline, but you can see that very prevalently online. And we'll, we'll be chatting a bit about that throughout the series too.

Q Life is Australia's first nationally oriented counselling and referral service for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex or LGBTI people. QLife provides peer supported telephone and web based services to diverse people of all ages. They help callers with a range of issues relating to sexuality and gender, including coming out, as well as more general issues such as relationship problems. So remember, you can call the Q lifeline daily from 5.30pm till 10.30pm on 1 800-184527 and for online chat and.

Support go to qlife.orgau I've got some dot points here. I'm just reading them and I'm like, oh, here we go. First time entering male only spaces, bathrooms, change rooms, barbers, sports environments.

I have never been a sports guy. I mean, when I was younger, pre puberty, but yeah. I did not go back into sports post transition. I thought that was too scary.

Yeah, no, me neither.

Yeah. But I mean, you know, a little bit.

Yeah, you know, I did a little bit. I'm sorry, I'm cutting you off.

No.

Because I used to play professional soccer.

Yeah.

Is to play at a very high competitive level in football. I call it football. Get over it. And I can definitely talk, I don't know about spaces, but from a physiological standpoint I can talk about the physical differences that I. In my body.

Yeah.

And playing soccer versus before. Before transition. And like how I felt with the ball, what running felt like before and after. The effects of testosterone and also pain. I think my pain threshold is significantly less.

Oh, totally. I'm such a wolf now.

Yeah. It's actually like, it's proven.

It's crazy.

Like men, testosterone based people experience more physical pain when, when something happens like, like, you know, punch you in the arm. That hurts more for a man than punching a woman in the arm.

Yeah. Getting a tattoo pre T and post T. Wildly different experience completely.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I get, I actually am very strategic with my tattoos. I get my tattoos just before I'm due for a shot because if I get it after the shot, it's more painful. Yeah.

What was your first time entering a male bathroom like? Did you have a period where you didn't go to either? Did you go to disabled bathrooms?

I did, yeah, I did. In the period where I was like, people are gonna be confused whichever bathroom I go into right now. So I think I'm just gonna use the, the accessible bathrooms. Yeah. But I actually found that by the time that I was actually walking into the men's bathrooms, they don't really look at each other, they don't talk. They kind of just go in, do their thing loudly and.

Yeah.

Grossly, hugely.

The only time I've been looked at is by teenagers.

Ah. Oh, really? Yeah.

Yeah, but that's, that's usually like when they're in a group together and they're already being quite rambunctious.

There's groups of teenage boys in bathrooms.

At, you know, shopping centres.

Like, I mean, like Hanging out. I mean.

Well, I mean, you know, they go together and you know they're being. Being rowdy.

That's true. And we did work at the same shopping centre, so I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I actually, I. Okay, so this is probably like the biggest con of like being a man, particularly if you have to sit down to pee. Why do y' all have to pee all over the seat?

Oh, it's so bad every time.

Like every time. It's not even just pee. It's like everything all over the seat. Everything everywhere.

And it's like. And it's all over the floor. It's just, it's just everywhere. It's like learn to aim. Lots of. Figure it out. If you can't aim, sit down good.

Then they should all probably be sitting down.

To be fair, I think I've probably quoted this statistic to you before, but Australia has the highest rate of men sitting down to pee out of any country anywhere.

And there's still pee on the seat.

And there's still pee on the seat. Gotta pray for those in other countries that have a lower rate.

Oh, it's just so gross. I miss women's bathrooms. They're so. They, they actually still. They smell nice. Women's bathrooms, I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they smell much.

Mostly cuz people are wearing perfume so they like it like lingers in the.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. There's a lot less happening. Yeah.

I don't know, I don't feel, I actually don't feel afraid in men's bathrooms that much.

No.

I also having, you know this. I'm speaking to my personal experience right now. The only times that I am afraid is if I'm sitting down on the toilet. I'm imping and I'm thinking, oh, does the way that I pee sound different?

You know, I had that same thought.

You did?

Yeah, I had that same thought because.

My PE is like hitting the ball at a different speed and sound and tone from like if you had a phallus, you know, velocity. And also I use toilet paper.

Yeah.

So like the sound of the toilet roll. This, by the way, people, this is how hyper aware of every single thing we're doing in the public space. All the time. All the time. Every single noise I make. Everything.

Constant train of thought, constantly going, so much energy. Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, they're gonna notice. And then I remember that men don't notice anything. So then I'm like, I'm fine.

Yeah.

But I do spend a lot of time thinking, they're gonna know. They're gonna know.

Yeah. It's definitely been, like, a thought and a concern, especially earlier in my transition. Like, you know, I. Like, I don't know if it's okay for me to be in this space. Like, I don't know if they're gonna notice. They're gonna catch me out thinking that you don't belong here. They're gonna attack me. Yeah, yeah. Like.

Yeah. Fear of violence. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. Since growing facial hair, a lot of that fear is. Is gone. But I would. I would avoid anything that would, you know, potentially point me out as being anything less than just a young man or anything feminine. Yeah. Any jewellery, any. Any. Anything colourful.

Yeah, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't wear colours.

Oh, that's sad.

Yeah. Because I was worried that that would, like, point me out as being other or feminine. Yeah. Or feminine. Yeah, other. Other in the sense. Like, it could be not man effeminate or, you know, like, you know, they might think that I was gay or whatever.

Oh, no.

Oh, no. Can't have one of those in the bathrooms.

Even though urinals are the most homoerotic thing I've ever experienced in my entire life. Oh, my gosh. I, like, walk past urinals to go to cubicles often.

Yeah.

And I see men lining up at the troughs and I'm like, this is so gay. Yeah.

I don't understand why that's the thing.

Men's bathrooms were like, I want to see everyone's junk all the time.

Yeah.

We want to be able to look at each other. There's. And also, I think most men, regardless of gen, like, cisness or transness, I think prefer cubicles because, like, I want privacy while I'm doing my business. I just want to, like, you know, just go in. It's a facility. I'm here for the facility. I'm not here for the. The homoerotic experience of exposing myself. I just.

Oh, yeah.

I have so many questions about men's bathrooms and why they're so gay. And there's nothing wrong with being gay. I just. I just think it's kind of like the way that they're designed is. Is gay. I can't think of the words. Anyway, that's whatever you're into.

There's enough chat about bathrooms.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Do you ever. Okay, there's another question I wrote down. Do you remember a moment that felt like a rite of passage? Do you feel like there was, like, a moment where. Oh, I did It, I'm here, I think initiated or something.

The first time the barber asked if I needed a shave.

Oh, that's a nice feeling.

Yeah.

Do you think the barber was like, you need a shave? And he was asking in a polite way?

Yeah, 100%. 100%. I think that was when I was, I think that was when I was testing out how long I could grow the beard before I could actually really grow the beard because I didn't have to be at work or anything during my, during my like surgery period when I got top surgery and I was testing out how much I could grow. And I went to the barber once, I was, you know, fully mobile and feeling good and he was like, do you want me to clean this up a bit? And I was like, yeah, right, that's it. Yeah, right.

That's the cue I actually find. So first time entering men's spaces, we talked, we just talked about bathrooms, but barbers, on the note of barbers, I think the barbershop is like one of the nicest, most mask friendly spaces and like a really healthy, healthy. The healthiest, one of the healthiest spaces I've been in for men where there's touching of each other that is affectionate and caring and about hygiene and about presentation and, and looking out for each other. It's also quite. You chat about your life, you chat about your partner, you chat about family, kids, music, a bunch of different things. Yeah, you share a lot.

And yeah, I was literally just going to say about the touching, the physical touch, because men don't get touched that.

No, they really don't. There's a lot less touch.

You know, I mean, you know, there's, there's outliers and you know, there's getting more and more of that in the world these days. But like, it's so rare for men to have a lot of physical touch, especially older generations. And the barber is kind of the only place where you can get that like, you know, the, the, the, the ending of the warm towel on the face.

Oh, that's so nice.

So nice. And like that face massage, it feels like a face hug.

Depending on how hairy your neck is, it can feel like a neck hug.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a great time. And I, yeah, I think that that's severely needed, like, because there's, I want.

More barber like experiences.

Yeah, I just don't think there's enough of that sort of intimacy. Yeah, it's intimacy, men's lives.

And it's also like it's, it's non sexual. It's. It's kind of like, like the equivalent of sisterhood, but brotherhood in the way that they, that you're engaging and it's health.

Like. Yeah. Healthy brotherhood. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like you said, looking out for each other, each other's health. Like, I went to a barber recently and I've got like wavy hair and I'm like, I really want to figure out how to deal with this wavy hair because that's something that I didn't expect. I had. My hair was straight as anything.

Yeah, me too. Now I have curls.

Now I go waves. I don't. I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this. And I went to the barber and he had curly hair and I was like, oh, my God, dude, you got to help me out. I don't know what I'm doing. And he was so good. Like, so like welcoming and engaging and willing to like, have a good chat and help. And I think that that's something that you really miss out on because, like, you said that male, like, connection is. It's all adversarial.

Yes.

Yeah.

Mm.

So unconditional.

Right. Like, and they're using that. So the barbershop is like, oh, this is a safe place to touch each other because we have to in order to get the look and the hygiene and the cut that we want. And so then it's acceptable.

Yeah.

But an actual fact, I really just like men to just hug each other and like pat each other in intimate ways that are non sexual generally more often because, like, there's nothing. It's just touching people. Come on.

I'm definitely seeing more and more of it as the years go on. Like younger generations and like a lot of like different cultures and stuff. You know, you see a lot, a lot more male on male sort of physical contact in a non violent way. Non violent, non sexual way, nonviolent, non sexual. But yeah, I'm still. There's still such a lack of it in the older generations and. Yeah, yeah, like that super white culture.

Do you think that's like 10 points for barbershops?

I think it's like 10 for sure.

Yeah, I think that's pretty good. What else we got? Do you remember your first this is different now moment? I had one of these recently actually.

Yeah.

I went to a local park, like just a random park. And I used to go, like, just walk down to my like, little local kids park. You know, the swings are and everything frequently just to get out of the house. And I was sitting there, and then there was, like, a mom rocked up with a couple of her kids, and I'm just still sitting there. And then I was, like, became very aware that I was a man sitting in a park alone with small children running around. And I was like, oh, this is different now. Yeah, yeah. Although before transition, when I went to the park, it was scary, but only at night.

Well, that's. That's the thing that I was going to say now is being out at night.

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm still looking over my shoulder. I think I'm still really trained.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely understand that. But I'm not. I'm not afraid to put my headphones on.

Oh, wow, your game.

I'm not afraid to walk around at night and exist. I'm not constantly, like, if I. If I do see something out of the corner of my eye or I hear something funny, like, I'll turn off whatever my headphones or I'll, you know, cut out there.

So you're still tuning in a little bit?

I'm still tuning in a little bit. I'm still aware of what's around me, which you should be. That's just being safe in the world. Yeah, like that. That constant, like, really oppressive fear that I used to have existing in the world at night, not really there anymore. Yeah, that's. That's a big difference also.

So you're feeling, like, more calm at night now because you're like, oh, I can, like, blend in as one of the people that are, like, safe at night.

Yeah.

And then the other flip side of that was I remember one time I got off the bus and I was walking up this, like, dark alleyway. It was like, winter, so it was pretty dark in the afternoon. And there was a woman by herself walking ahead of me.

Yeah.

And we're walking up, and she turned up the alleyway and I turned up the alleyway maybe like less than 20 seconds after her. And I was watching her look back over her shoulder and, like, kind of speed up a little bit. And I went, oh, I'm the enemy now.

Yeah, I. I do my darnedest, like, because I'm catching public transport a lot these days and doing a lot of walking. And I do my darndest to, like, really, like, veer around people and, like, speed walk it, you know, I'm. I'm Olympian speed walker.

You are a fast walker.

It's hard to. I. I slow myself down when. Around other people.

Stop it.

But I'm Olympian speed walking past People and I'm like, doing a big loopy around them to stop them from freaking out. Because I'm so aware that even though I'm short, I'm a man with a beard.

You're a man.

And fear. And it's scary.

Yep. Man scared.

Yeah. That's. Yeah.

Hot tip for all men.

Become an Olympian speed walker.

Walk quickly and fastly with your knees together and swing them hips, baby. And you will be no threat to anyone. They'll be like, oh, it's just a gay boy. He's fine. I also just, like, stop and wait for a while. Yeah. Or cross the other side of the road.

I gotta get to my destination. I can't. I'm not gonna wait. I want to get home. I got blast.

Like Sonic the Hedgehog.

Yeah. Actually, my preference was always Shadow the hedgehog.

Okay.

All right.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Sounds scarier than Sonic, but, yeah, he's.

The cool, edgy one. He's the cool, edgy one.

Okay, last question and we'll go to some music. So what helped you get through. What helped us get through those early experiences?

Oh, gosh, I can straight up immediately. Community.

Community.

People around me. I had you. You. You were six months ahead of me in transition. So.

Six months or three months?

No, I met you when you were three months and I started three months later.

That's right.

So you were six months ahead of me and. Well, r. Technically, yeah.

Speed walking faster than you.

Yeah. And so I had you as a little template of, like, somebody that I could go to and have, like, little questions about and, like, you know, have validation in my feelings of new experiences. And there's also, like, online communities, like, you talking about the manosphere before. But there are also better ones, helpful, you know, friendly online communities that I went to. You know, like, a lot of.

It's like FTM community groups.

FTM community groups and, you know, like. Yeah. Where you. Where you can ask questions and. And receive validation and just talk about your experiences. And that's really where I got a lot of my. A lot of. Yeah, the.

The, like, soundboarding.

Yeah, soundboarding. And, like, that's what helped me through the experience. And like, we went to one of those little.

Oh, we went to a meetup.

Yeah. At the Wickham.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's still running.

I don't know.

I'm not going to mention it because I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

Yeah, but we went to, like, a transmask. Yeah. Trans man transmasc meetup. And Met a few people. That was pretty nice, actually.

That was really nice.

Particularly in the early. Like, I'm not in that. I don't. Haven't gone back for a couple of years now. But that was really nice to begin with because I was like, oh, there's other people like me. And I think the invisibility of trans men is quite.

Yeah.

Prevalent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and it's. Yeah, it's really hard. I have definitely had trans people be shocked to find out that I'm trans.

Oh. I told people I was trans and they asked me when I was dressing up and I'm like, I am. What? Yeah, I am in the dress up.

And so, like, you know, on the reverse of that, like, how are you supposed to know when other people are trans either? And, like, have that community and have that ability to. Like, that's really difficult. So if you're rural. Particularly if you're rural, which is why I think those online community groups are so vital.

Yeah, they are extremely vital. Totally. Next we're going to talk about learning the rules of masculinity. Unspoken expectations, how men police each other. I mean, we talked about that a little bit, but that's also relevant pretty much throughout the whole theme of masculinity.

Yeah, for sure.

And also, like, how are we breaking rules? How are we following rules? What are we choosing to do as individuals? And also just a reminder as well that Elliot and I are talking about our personal experiences and not. We're not speaking for everyone. We're not all trans people.

We're not like, everybody is different.

Conglomerate, human. Yeah. So we're gonna chat a bit now about some unspoken expectations. So, like, silence, banter, toughness, emotional resilience, stoicism, being a manly man, whatever that means. I'm still figuring that out.

Yeah. If you figure out the rule list, send it through. I'm still a little lost.

Yeah, Be angry.

Yeah, yeah.

Be angry and outraged. Yeah. But, yeah, you know, so what behaviours feel or felt unnatural or uncomfortable at first or do they still feel uncomfortable? Uncomfortable. Like I'm trying to think of.

I don't know. I think.

I don't subscribe to any talk about women without the presence of women.

Yeah.

With men, actually.

Sure. Yeah.

It's kind of something I don't like doing.

Like, this is something that I didn't experience, you know, prior. Prior to transition. I didn't experience it. But the, The. The negative talk about women and the hypersexualization and that sort of stuff, I will not engage.

Yeah.

Like I, like you said, worked in games and you know, the, the. For example, the most recent Ghost of Yote game, if you're a gamer, you know, shout Out. There is a game called Ghost of Yotei that focuses in on the lead character played by Erika Ishii, who is a non binary person but presents femme. And in the game the character is a woman. And it is a sequel to a game that had a lead male character. And I had a, had a person come in and talk mad smack about Go Studio Tay being a bad game. It was, you know, how dare they, you know, put this ugly person on there. Like she doesn't even, like she doesn't, it doesn't make sense for her to be on there. Like it's bad. Like she's ugly. It's a bad thing that she's there about her constantly. And like, you know, and they, and he said, oh, if they'd given her the Stellar Blade treatment, maybe I'd buy it. And if you're unaware, Stellar Blade was well, well known for being a very hyper sexualized game and, and got a lot of flak actually for like the representations and the outfits that they put the character very misogynist women. And I just looked at this guy and like, I shouldn't have said anything according to the corporate overlords that had had me there, but I was like, dude, that is completely inappropriate. Like, it would make no sense for her to look like that because this is just the same as the first game. You know, she's on a vengeance mission where she's murdering a bunch of people. Like, why should she look, why should she be in skimpy outfits?

I'm gonna kill people, but I want my boobs.

Like, that's ridiculous.

There's probably some people out there, but that's not, not the point.

Not like, like, I just, I, like, I refuse to participate because it's just disgusting and like it happens so often.

And then there's other circumstances. So like trans men have this. Like, I feel like. And maybe you can speak to this too a bit, Elliot. But like there's like this. There's times where I'm like, okay, I feel safe enough to like challenge this discussion and challenge this notion. And so then I choose to speak up and I might be like, gently point the conversation in a different way or just say, sometimes I literally. And this is the easiest thing I found to do. And this is probably some advice for men generally who are wanting to change the narrative of how we talk about women and feel scared to do so in a group setting with men, all you simply have to do is say, I don't want to talk about that. I'm not. I'm not talking about that. And then as they. If they keep talking, like, I don't want to hear it. And you can just say that.

Yeah.

And. And change the topic. I think that's been the best way of me going. I don't want to talk about that. We're not talking about that.

Yeah.

Or saying we don't talk like that. Because that's my way of being, like.

Really shutting it down.

Yeah, we're shutting this down. This is not a conversation we have. It's not appropriate, and I don't want to hear it.

Yeah.

Because it's not. And, like, it's not okay to talk about anyone's bodies like that firstly. But also, there is such a huge criticism and analysis on women's bodies for sexual pleasure or, like, some standard that they have to meet to be woman enough.

Yeah.

I can assure you right now that women don't care what you think. And. Yeah, it's just. It's actually pretty gross.

Yeah.

But it is hard. It is hard because there have been times where I've had men talking pretty. Maybe not misogynist, but because I wasn't always fully aware of the context of the conversation that I went. I'm actually not going to engage at all because I feel unsafe to say. Say anything.

Yeah. And I mean, it's like, to be fair, this is another one of those instances of, like, what you said before, of the passing privilege. Right.

Yeah.

Like, I did not feel confident or comfortable speaking up or speaking out prior to being read fully as a, you know, quote unquote. CIS man. Like, this is what people saw of me, and I didn't. I didn't feel comfortable speaking out when I was maybe a little bit more androgynous because I felt unsafe.

And I don't think you're too feminine to be strong enough to speak up, to be alpha.

And I don't. I'm not gonna sit here and push people to speak up and speak out if they're not feeling safe. If you feel like you can, you should.

Yeah, I think. I think so. I think if you're in a position where you can, you should. But also, to trans masc listeners and now and trans family, there is no obligation for you to do that either. It's, you know, fear of violence is very.

No, that's. That's what I'm saying. Like, if you feel like you you are capable and you're confident and comfortable and you feel safe enough to absolutely.

What masculinity rules did you learn quickly, Elliot?

I think this goes back to my last. The last thing that I said about showing pain around other men. Not allowed. Banned. Yeah. I learned that it's. Yeah. You're not, you're not supposed to tell people when you hurt yourself unless you're making a joke of yourself.

Yeah, yeah. You're. You're mocking.

Yeah.

When did I look? I don't know. I, I really try not to perform anything, but I'm trying to think of rules. Probably the walk.

Yeah.

Just like, making sure that I like my. The gate of my knees as I'm moving, you know, like hips wider. Like this.

Like just stance.

Yeah, stance. Yeah, yeah. Your gate kind of wider. I think I picked up different walks. Sometimes I relax. Sometimes. Yes.

Yeah. So performative. Yeah. Like, I, I, as I've gotten into further it, you know what, Four years on team. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have time. But like, as I've gotten further and further in, like, I just don't really care as much and I don't really perform. Like, I'll cross my legs. I don't care. I'll drink wine around whatever I want, however I want. But like, yeah, for sure. Back in, back in the day, so, so hyper aware about how I was.

Particularly the early part of transition. Hey, I think the different, the different parts of transition, particularly if you're someone transitioning medically, so taking testosterone and having these huge physical changes, there are different iterations or stages of that transition that lend itself to different hyper vigilance of your own self and so on. Like, I completely forget about periods now because I don't get them anymore. I forget that they're a thing. Which sounds really lovely, but not when you. Not really. Because it's something that we should all be aware of. We should remember these cycles for humans, broadly, and I forget about them. There's actually another question here, which is, like, which. Which parts of masculinity felt hardest to perform or accept? I was gonna say misogyny. But not all men are misogynists, so that's not true. But I don't. I do not subscribe to that at all, because I refuse. But I think the hardest part to perform for me has been pretending I don't feel things.

When I do, I'm gonna, I'm gonna snap back at you with that one a little bit.

Yeah.

Not that that's the hardest thing for me to perform, but that's the hardest thing for me to accept.

Yeah.

I have actually had real difficulties in feeling my feelings and. And letting them out. I did not cry for a good three years.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

After starting.

You couldn't cry with tea?

I could not cry. The only time I cried with tea was when I paused t for about two months. That was the first and only time I cried in the entire time of my transition. Until maybe about a month or two ago, I've started being able to cry again, but I've really worked on that, so.

Interesting, because the first, I'm going to say six months or so, I couldn't cry either. And then also when I'm feeling really emotional, I don't cry as quickly as I used to.

Yeah. It takes me a lot to really feel my emotions and I really have to sit with them. And that's. That was. Yeah, that's a real conscious decision and I have to actively work on that. And that is something I did not expect and thought was kind of just like. Kind of just an excuse for men to not, you know, be present with their emotions. I never believed that that was a real thing for anybody. Even when other trans men talked about it, I was like, nah, that's not real. For me, that has been a genuine issue. And it's been really hard. It's been a really difficult thing for me to accept.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, of course. Crying is such a great way to relieve stress.

Do you know how frustrating it is not to be able to sob? Like a real good sob, you know.

I can't even tell you how many men I know that need to have a good sob.

Truly, I think that's just have a cry. Yeah.

Actually, it is tricky. It is tricky, but it is also, like, I know so well. I feel so good after a cry, though.

I know.

Come on, guys, have a good cry. Yeah, the barbershop. Get a face massage. Have a good cry.

Yeah.

Yeah. Let's chat about early belonging and discomfort, Feeling welcomed versus tolerated versus ignored, navigating anticipated stigma, imposter syndrome, stuff like that. And we. And like, these are kind of themes all throughout the episode today. But we are. And we're taking some broad strokes with. With the transmasc experience as we progress in the series, we will dive deeper into the weeds and break things down further. But, yeah, this is quite. This is just the first episode, but yeah, so trans masculinity and men's spaces. We've actually just been chatting in between some music here with our show neighbours Megahers with Sarah from Megahers about similar things. It's interesting. I mean, it's weird. I think as a trans guy, I'm like, oh, I just live with this knowledge about, like feminism and gender and stuff all the time. But then when we talk about it on air, people are messaging in and they're like, whoa, I didn't know that. And yeah. Wow, what a surprise. And it's like, yeah, well, it's there. We can prove it.

The world is.

Yeah, yeah, we see it every day and. Yeah. And it's. We also live with, you know, the lived experience of being a woman or perceived as a woman and being socially conditioned as such.

Yeah.

And then now we move into men's spaces and have to relearn social conditioning also for surviving. So we're basically training, trading one performance element to another performance element and how we're surviving, how we navigate that and how it's all stupid.

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is so silly when you really break it down that we have to like perform all of this all the time in order to be accepted.

Yeah.

Into our society. And, you know, you don't always have to like 24 7, you know, when you find your tribe, you know, they're not expecting anything of you a lot of the time, but you know, in broader society you kind of. Yeah, you kind of have to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So silly.

It is really silly. And then like I mentioned this word earlier, but it's called anticipated stigma and it's kind of. It's a new term for me anyway. And it's, you know, you're anticipating discrimination and because you're in the state of anxiety or like nervousness about. About things, you become hyper aware, you mask certain behaviours and then you perform others and all sorts of stuff. It's a bit of a dance until you're feeling safe and welcomed in an environment that you, you know, that you feel like you can actually unmask and be trans or just whoever you are as an individual.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know. I'm trying to think of questions around this topic as well. But, like, do you have any thoughts about feeling welcomed versus tolerated versus ignored?

Yeah, I mean, like in, in terms of feeling welcomed, like something this kind of brings up for me. Ellen texted in earlier about respect in the workplace. Big one as, like once you start presenting as a man and feeling. That was something that I really experienced, you know, working in the gaming industry. The respect and. Yeah. That feeling of Being welcomed in more, you know, willingly, once I started presenting as a man was significant. It was a significant black and white shift.

Yeah. I think professionally it's easy now.

Yeah.

That's gonna sound.

Yeah.

Awful.

It's. It's so much.

It is.

It's so much easier to just be heard.

Yeah. I only ever have to say one thing once. And people have listened to. I don't have to repeat myself 10,000 times.

I, like, I. I used to just give up. I used to just stop talking. And I was just the quiet one because I would try to say stuff and I would get dismissed or ignored every time or cut off or cut off constantly.

So much. Not so much like, on the aspect of, like, the disparity between, like, women talking and men talking and how people actually pay attention to you when you're a man and they don't when you're a woman. There's also some positive. Some little, Little things that men do with each other that I do, like, aside from going to a barbershop, is the fist bump.

Yeah, the fist bump is cute.

I like that. It's a little, little thing. It doesn't have to be. I only. I mean, if you're gonna fist bump, fist bump everyone in your collective group when you're doing it.

Yeah.

Don't just single out women, but it is something that men typically do with each other and I quite like that. I think that's a nice.

Just little acknowledgement of, like, hey, you.

Know, we achieved something. Let's have a little fist bump. Celebratory fist bump. Something else that I also like is calling each other brother or bro.

Yeah.

I find that a lot with my people of colour space more than with white men. But.

But like, yeah, like the, the little thanks, brother that I would get every now and then, like, you know, when you're helping each other out. So nice.

Whereas women actually don't do that as much. Like, I don't think I've ever had a woman say to me, nice work, sis, or a good work, sister, or, like, really at all. And I'm like, I think that that could be nice.

I think it's cute.

Suggestions from trans men to women's spaces.

Men telling women, you should do this.

They love that. I heard women love being told.

That's what I've heard too.

Yeah, they don't.

Yeah, sorry. Sorry for saying that. I don't believe that.

But it is. It is cool. I do, I do. I do think there should be, like, some points of solidarity there. But. And there are There are some nice things that men do with each other.

Yeah, it does happen.

It is.

It's. And I think it's. It's important to point that out. Yeah. When. When it does exist in the world. Yeah. Because we shouldn't just be putting people down for the bad things that everyone does. We should also be lifting up the good stuff so that. That's the ideal that we're looking for.

Yeah. And there's also, like, in this. I'm reading a book called the Male Complaint by Simon James Copland, which is a book about the manosphere in recent years, and it's, you know, talking about anti feminism and the communities that have orchestrated, like, online campaigns of misogynistic harassment. And, yeah, it was, like, not. Not a great, fun read or a light read, for that matter. But in this book, this talks about a bit about how men feel like they are. Everything about masculinity, everything about them is toxic and that masculinity sucks and it's a big boohoo and it's like it's failing and that men aren't what they were anymore. I'm like, hey, you know, as a trans guy entering a man's space, there are loads of nice things about men. Yeah. I think men are quite funny, actually. I think they have a pretty interesting sense of humour.

Men can be so silly, and they're.

Silly and goofy and that's fun.

That's really fun.

Yeah, I think men can be quite lovely. And, like, I try to look at masculinity and go, hey, what are the things that are here that I do like and that I want to adopt or that I already have and that I can appreciate? And what things do I want to. That I don't want to adopt and that I want to. And I want to collect. Like, I want to stop perpetuating within the space. So, yeah, and I think that's a. That's an ongoing journey. That's an ongoing journey, for sure.

Yeah, I. I think that's a big. A big part of the reason that people do move into that manosphere. Right. Like, you know, the. The desire to feel welcomed in a space. And people who are feeling, you know, discounted or ignored in. In other spaces because of them being men, because of them feeling certain ways, they're going to move into these spaces and be welcomed with open arms saying, yeah, you're right, everyone is bad against you, and. And you should feel that they're all terrible people. No, no. Yeah, that's not. That's not real. But, like, that's they move into that space because they feel that's the only place they feel welcomed.

Yeah. And it also validates their sense of injustice or that they're feeling.

Yeah, it's nice to feel like a victim every now and then.

Yeah. We're allowed to go home and cry about things happening to us. I think that's fair. It's just. Go get therapy.

Oh my God.

Honestly, go pay us a psychologist or a counsellor.

Counsellors are so much cheaper than psychologist.

Not your body.

Yeah, the evolvers are not paid enough for that.

No, they go get a face rub and shave, but then go see your psycho. Yeah, they need some more of that.

Hondo, Hondo, did you have any other.

Points that you like to add?

I was just looking at the dot points and trying to think of things.

Hey, this is a planned three part series. We know what we're doing. I know, I know what's going on. I did want to, I also wanted to add that like, you know, we trans men have this unique perspective because not only, like I said, I've said this before, I'll say it again a thousand times. When you live as a woman for so long and you see and hear all the complaints women have about men and then you enter men's spaces and you hear all the complaints men have about women and like, the way that it could be solved is like kind of starts to become really quite apparent, which is, have you considered men? First of all, you need to go and sit and think about what your feelings are. Discover them maybe even for the first time because you've been told your entire life not to have them.

Yeah.

So go do some therapy. And because firstly, she is not your therapy. No, she's not your therapist and she's not going to be able to answer your questions for you. Go have some therapy and figure out how you might be feeling. And then also, additionally, if you want to know what women want, have you considered asking them? Just a thought. And then if you come back to me and say, well, they don't know what they want, well, maybe they need therapy too. But the point is, why don't you.

Just ask each other as well? Like stop assuming that every woman is the same.

Oh.

That people are not their own individuals. Like, you hear, you hear men, especially around, you know, you know, Christmas gift giving sort of periods, men being like, oh, I don't know what women want. It's like, well, do you know what your wife wants?

Yeah.

Have you spoken to, do you know your wife? Have you spoken to her because that's different from broad.

Do you remember her eye colour? Like, sorry.

I mean, individualise the situation.

Yeah. I mean, I remember people coming in going, oh, I have. I need a present for, for a seven year old girl. And I'm like, that's super unhelpful to me.

Yeah. Do you know how many things there.

Are in the world I've got? And I got an age limitation, so that's good to know. But like, girl means nothing in terms of interest.

Yeah.

So, you know, what, what does this young person like to play with or interests?

You know, as a seven year old girl? Obviously I'm not a regular seven year old girl, but I loved Tonka Trucks. Don't quote me on that, Mum. I don't remember things very well, but like, you know, I loved. I remember my dad took me to see Monster Tracks and stuff and I thought that was the best thing in the world. It was amazing.

Yeah. Pretty cool. So cool.

But you know, my cousin, so into Barbies and we were like a year apart.

Yep.

We were both girls raised in very similar environments.

Yeah.

You know, if, if my grandparent went into a gift shop to purchase gifts for both of us, we'd be two completely different people. Despite being in the same age range and the same gender presentation.

Yeah. Like.

Yeah. Anyway, that's going to be on the point.

Really think about people as people. Being a good man means being a good person 100%. That's what I think.

Be a good person and you will be a good man.

Yeah. Do we have one key takeaway from entering men's spaces?

I think it's like complex, but also weirdly easy at the same time.

Yeah. That's a good way of looking at it.

Yeah. I think that there's so much complexity in like all of the unspoken little rules and narratives that we all have in our minds about what men are. But also, like, it's so simple at the same time. Like, you just do your little head nod as you walk past people. You, you know.

When there's a man, like alone in a venue and then there you appear and then you just have this moment where you look at each other and just give each other's like, little head nod and then you just keep moving and you're like, I did it.

Yeah. You know, that's kind of a gender affirming. That's a gender affirming experience. You know, you do your little head nods.

You, you know, also, you know, men are talking like. Men are talking about like. And this is a Big key take, takeaway. Well, for me, I think the, probably the biggest one is that men are feeling like they're under attack. I don't know why. And maybe, and maybe they are. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

Totally.

And you know, I think men being a man is worth being. Otherwise trans men and trans masculine people wouldn't exist 100%. I. The one key takeaway for me from entering men's spaces is that it's a space that I wanted to be and it's a space that I belong in some ways. And then I've, I've opened the door and I've come in and I'm like, whoa, you guys need to shower more. And there's some other issues here, but generally you're, you're actually pretty funny and goofy and you're kind of like. Yeah, it's, it's complex and it's in, in the patriarchy. The patriarchy makes it complex and, and suffering is very real for men. But then it's also like, it is pretty easy.

Yeah.

You know, it's just be yourselves maybe. And if you don't know what being yourself means, maybe sit with that. Yeah, maybe sit with that. Definitely. We've come to the end of our first part of the three part series, It's a Man's World with EZ and Elliot. And we are, we were just, we're just admiring how much, how much we do love about men and that, you know, if you, gosh, guys, tear down the patriarchy, you'll be free. We'll all be free. We can do this together.

Yeah.

We need you here. We need you to feel your feelings. Feel your feelings.

Feel em.

It's actually, you know, without feeling your feelings. Like, why are you, what is life? What?

Yeah. How, how can you enjoy life if you can't feel it?

Yeah.

I mean, really deep in your, deep in your being.

What is pleasure without pain? You need that, you need that process. It goes through stuff. That's okay. And we're all going to do that together. Yeah.

Yeah. We all got to work together to really, really make this work.

Yeah. Women are not the enemy.

100%. Women are not the enemy and men are not the enemy. And if we can work together as men and women and non binary folks to really bring down this oppressive nature of the patriarchy, it's going to help all of us feel better within ourselves.

We can all dance around free and happy and hopefully anti capitalist and you know, a world, a world where men are free is a world where we are all free too. So yeah, liberate yourself. Guys, you've been listening to transmission on 4 triple Z. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you would like to listen back to the show, you can head to 4 Triple Z.org au programmes and they can click on the show that you'd like to listen to. You can listen back to a whole bunch of stuff. Full two hours of Transpower every Monday 10 to 12 and see you all next week. And yeah, Happy New Year as well.

Yeah, bye bye.

Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us Every Monday live on 4zzz from 10am or listen to our podcast on the Community Radio plus app.