At 4zzz, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast.

We pay our respects to the elders,

past, present and emerging of the Turbul and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded and we stand in solidarity with. Mission on 4zzz, amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Meanin, Brisbane and beyond. Hello, you're listening to Transmission on 4zzz, all about amplifying trans and gender diverse voices of meaning, Brisbane and beyond. We are also. Yeah, we've got some pretty cool stuff to talk about today. It's all about race, racism, white fragility and gender all within the community. We're going to be talking about some of our experiences. I've got two wonderful guests, hopefully two wonderful guests. We're still pending on one showing up, but that's okay because we've got Pierce in studio. How you doing, Piers?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm fantastic. I'm so glad to see you. If you don't know Piers, you should because he's been on the show before chatting about his extraordinary gender affirming underwear brand Dysphoric, which we will chat more about in a second. But first we're just gonna play Hazel with the week in community news and events.

Hello, this is Hazel and I'm bringing you your news and events for today. 27 April 2026 Holdsworth House, Brisbane closes its doors An LGBTQ and HIV specialist centre in Brisbane has officially closed its doors. Holdsworth House, which first opened in late 2014, ceased operations yesterday after more than a decade of serving the community. Staff have reflected on the closure as an emotional moment, highlighting the strong connections built with patients over the past 11 years. Patients who are unable to secure appointments before the closure are being encouraged to seek care at Stonewall Medical Centre in Windsor or Jenjer Health Australia in Holland park, where several former Holdsworth House practitioners are now consulting. A new practise is expected to open in Fortitude Valley on Doggett street in July with services set to continue supporting Brisbane's LGBTQ and HIV communities. For events we have Kiki's Drag Night. It's at season three Woolloongabba, Friday the 1st of May from 7pm and the price is $22.50 online. On Friday the 1st of May, season three is hosting Kiki's Drag Night. Kiki's is a vibrant, community led event that invites the audience to become the performer by combining drag and karaoke to create an unforgettable night. We serve Karaoke hits and you serve looks with an open mic and an open mind. Kiki's fosters a welcoming environment where anyone can become a star. Kiki's Dragonite was born right here in Meanjin, a DIY celebration of creativity, community and queer joy. From our humble beginnings as a knight with friends, Kikis has evolved into a full scale event for playful self expression, authenticity and pride. The dress code is Drag whatever looks like you, as long as you're serving charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. Tickets are just $20 and can be bought online or at the door. For more information, head to KikisDragnight on Instagram. Shelf Lovers Drag Storytime in May. This is at Gender Health Australia, 1018 Logan Road, Holland park on Saturday, May 2 from 2pm and it's $5 per person. Join us for the first Drag Storytime in our new home. That's right, Shelf Lovers is back and we're bringing all of your favourite sparkly, cosy and fun vibes to Storytime. Once again. Our lovely host, vice versa will entertain us with some gorgeous storeys and a lively show. And you'll be able to cheque out our beautiful pocket sized store. Presented in collaboration with Queer and here, Shelf Lovers Drag Storytime is open to all ages. Put on your favourite costume, your fairy wings, your glitters or your prince, princess or person charming outfits and come along. Please note our new space is located inside the fully accessible GHA clinic at 1018 Logan Road, Holland Park. There is free parking on site and a bus stop right at the front of the building. Thank you, Ivan. Hazel, that was your news and events for today.

Thank you so much. Hazy, ah, week of community events. Hey, sounds like lots of things worth checking out. If you'd like to go to the Drag Storytime, you should go. Definitely go cheque out the Gender Health Australia space in Holland Park. It's amazing. Oh, we're back in studio with Pierce. How you doing? I'm great. I'm gonna move the mic for you so it's like more comfortable.

You didn't hear that? My voice did not crack. I am great.

I'm great. I'm doing fine.

Great.

Yeah. How you been? How's life?

Life is fantastic. Been working on some really cool projects. Got some really cool new underwear upcoming for Dysphoric.

Yeah. Okay. All right, tell us all about it.

All right, so first and foremost, I am working on a collaboration with Sock Drawer Heroes. For anyone who doesn't know Sock Drawer Heroes, which I can't imagine at this point in time, anyone doesn't know. Sock Drawer Heroes. They are located in Sydney and they are the top gender affirming store within Australia. They've got all your binders, they've got packers packing underwear, tucking underwear, lots of books.

They're just badges, pins, other apparel as well.

Yeah, yeah. All of your gender affirming needs. And they are trans owned, most importantly.

Yes. Which is what we love. Similarly to dysphoric, also trans owned and operated. Do you want to talk a little bit about what dysphoric does? I mean, some people know, but we should tell them again.

All right. So dysphoric is Mean Jin's gender affirming underwear brand. I started it originally in 2017 and for lots of reasons needed to relaunch it later in 2022, I think it was.

Yeah.

But it's really taken off since then. I've gotten to work with a lot of really cool, like, influencers. If anyone knows Benji Astrom, he was lovely and posted some things. I've also gotten to work with Sasha Allen who also posted an awesome video review and it's just been really cool to get to collaborate with other people within the community and see them in underwear.

I see why you started this brand now. It's okay. It's all right. It's all right. We're allowed to get a little thirsty over the community.

Oh, yeah.

I'm actually just checking out the dysphoric website. If you'd like to cheque out the website. It's dis dys4ick.com/4ick with the number four. And you've got some really great photos on here. Oh, my goodness. They're just so, like, warm and inviting. I particularly like the trans mask with a snake.

Ah, yes, yes.

That's a great shot in the backyard.

We did that around the time that old mate did his Bonds commercial.

Oh, Robert Irwin. Yes, yes. Oh, yes. I was talking about Robert recently. Yeah. Well, you know, if you want to eat your heart out for a trans equivalent, this, this, this model in dysphoric underwear is definitely coming close and there

are fantastic photos of trans women on there as well.

Oh, yeah.

And more importantly, underwear to buy.

Yeah, yeah. Cheque it out. Head over to the website and support local business supporting community. Get comfortable. It's definitely getting into the cooler weather, so I don't know if you want the swimwear, but for those who are into a bit of a thrill and a chill, there's definitely some swimwear in there you can cheque out as well.

And about to be more. Because of the collaboration with Sockdoor Heroes.

Oh, are you allowed to talk about the collaboration?

Yes.

Yes. Okay.

Absolutely. So it was really cool. We've been working on it for a few months now and it is packing swimwear. They are a little bit shorter, so if you like wearing board shorts, you can wear them under or they're just kind of hot looking speedo kind of vibes.

Great. And you don't have to like, you know, dive into the ocean and watch your packa float up into the surf. It's finally strapped down.

Yeah. You know those videos of like messages in a bottle washing onto the seashore? Really picturesque. It's not quite the same.

Hey, mom, look. What's this? The ocean sent us the message. Trans guy lost some appendage here. Oh, that's awesome. Oh, great. Well, I'm keen to cheque all that out and shout out. Yeah. To sock draw heroes down in Sydney. Sweet. Well, all the music, by the way, on today's episode, not only is it trans and gender diverse artists, but they're specifically culturally and linguistically diverse artists. That's what the showcase is for today. It's awesome. I spent a long time curating this playlist so I hope you enjoy. You're listening to Transmission on Ford Zzz. My name is ez. I use he, him pronouns and I'm in studio with a guest that I'm really excited to introduce you. I'm not letting him speak because I want to introduce him. You already heard him before, but we'll do it again. I'm really excited. We're joined by Pierce Kent, the founder of Dysphoric, a gender affirming underwear brand which first launched back in 2018. The goal of supporting the engines trans community. Some listeners might actually remember Piers from when he joined us back in Studio in 2023 to talk about the origin storey of dysphoric, including a hilarious tale of his experience that involves the gym, a treadmill and a packer. If you'd like to listen to that storey again, I'll put links in the show notes. It's called dysphoric training wheels is the episode. It was back in July 2023, so cheque that one out. Piers, I'm so glad you're here. Tell us your pronouns. How you feeling?

Hey, I'm feeling good. I'm Pierce. My pronouns are he and him.

And we're going to be chatting about race, racism, community, culture, gender, how we're experiencing it. And I guess like some of our talk a little bit about Our cultural history and, and how that makes up who we are, like our identity. So yeah, Pierce, do you want to share a little bit about your storey and you know, you have an accent as well, which I love listening to. So tell us, tell us a little about who you are and where you're from.

If, if you haven't noticed this accent already. I am American. My mother is Hawaiian. I identify as Mahu Kane, which is in Hawaiian culture there's a third gender which is the Mahu Kane means masculine. So sort of along the lines of transmasculine. I can't say that I was surrounded by my Hawaiian culture as a kid. I was raised in the LDS Church and I have a very religious family and I would say that I was predominantly raised as white but then being at church was not treated like the white kids, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When you are surrounded by beautiful blonde haired, blue eyed girls and you are this slightly olive skinned, curly, messy, bushy haired kid, you just kind of stand out a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. And like you, you're not reading as white on face value. Like you know, people aren't looking at you and going, making those assumptions essentially. Yeah, yeah. I think you and I actually have a similar, similar upbringing in that we both. So I'm, I'm trua2spirit Native American. My dad is South American, Uruguayan and it's all part of that side of my family. But I was raised here and born here in Meanjin, Brisbane, Australia. Raised in white Australian culture and then, but also having that connection to culture through my dad. But then mostly, you know, I don't speak Spanish to the shock and horror of many of my cousins. But you know, still having totally different experiences in primary school and stuff like that with people being like, oh, why is your dad black and you're not? You know, and also being like 6 years old being like, I don't know, like I don't know, this is the way it is and then getting called lots of awful nicknames and slurs and all sorts of things and being very confused by that as well. But you were you born and raised in the US I was, I was

born and raised in the US. I lived there until I was believe 24.

Yeah, right.

Moved here.

That's a long time.

Yes, yes, very long time. I moved here just as Trump was coming into office.

I'm out.

Yeah. I was talking to a girl on Instagram and I really liked her and the timing seemed like a sign so I went for it.

How and how have you found Assimilating here from the U.S. like, what's, what's that been like?

You know, it's really interesting. A lot of people don't like Americans.

Why?

I don't know.

I remember the first time I ever went to coffee club. First of all, I thought it was like really nice because it's a lot nicer than some of our diners. I thought this was like high end cafe food. But I remember asking a waitress for a knife and she jokingly said to me, well, why don't you just cut your sandwich with your gun?

Oh my.

Okay, that's a bit full on.

But also, I didn't understand Australian humour.

So how does she know my knife? I have a gun with a knife. Yeah.

Are bayonets coming back in?

Yeah. Style. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, Aussie humour is definitely on the drier kind of, you know, giving you grief kind of side of. Right, the humour, the humour side of things. More almost British in the humour, actually. Aussie humour.

Yeah. Yeah, I could absolutely see that.

I've definitely had experiences with Americans where, you know, Aussies are likely to make jokes where at your expense as a form of bonding. Whereas I discovered with some of my American friends that that is not a way to bond with. They're not really. Not into like knocking each other down for a bit of play.

Right.

I'm not really either. And I don't know if it's the best way to bond with people, but it has been, you know, it is culturally a way, I guess, to. To bond. But yeah, so, and moving here, I mean, sounds you've got like such a unique journey to like have been raised the way that you have and then exploring, you know, leaving the US at a time when, you know, it was about to escalate into like some pretty intense years which we're still living through now. And things keep developing over there which make me more and more concerned about our trans and gender diverse cousins and family all over in the U.S. but yeah. So did you want to talk a little bit about your experience? Maybe like living in. Living in so called Australia and within the transgender diverse community. Have you ever had experiences with like being ethnically different with that? Has that been impacting you? Do you notice that people treat you differently?

I actually see it as almost beneficial because I think I find the gender diverse community is actually a little bit more diverse in the US I see more people of colour.

Yeah, great.

Whereas here I don't see as many trans people of colour. And so I'm finding myself in opportunities where that's almost embraced. Whereas in the US I feel like even though you're seeing more people of colour transitioning, it's almost whitewashed. You can be a person of colour but you're wanting to blend in. Whereas here it's almost celebrated.

Yeah. Is it. Do you feel. Do you feel like it's tokenized in some way or. Or more that it's just like, oh, there's so few of you, you're so special. Yeah.

Yeah. I could see how it would def. I would definitely see it as being tokenized.

Not that the celebration isn't lovely, more that just like when, when there's less of. Sometimes it can feel a little bit like you stick out. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm definitely the only Native American that I know here. If there's any out there, give a shout out. There's a couple of, you know, native South Americans as well, trans native South Americans that I've met in the space. But you know, we're not always out and about and in community. Yeah. How have you found that, like your experience, like, have there any been moments in the community where things felt complicated or exclusionary, anything like that? Not really.

Not so much. I do find though that as an immigrant, a lot of times people don't really understand what it's like in the US or what it's like to be afraid to go home.

Yeah.

I think here in Australia, even though I will say it is getting slightly more dangerous to be trans, there is not the level of physical danger here. And I think that because it's something that a lot of the trans community here has not faced, the understanding of what it would be like if I did have to go back to the US is there isn't a lot of understanding of what that would look like

and there might be like the reality of moving there would. Well, I mean, can you move back like not safely. Yeah.

There's the chance that my passport would be confiscated because it says male on it and was changed.

Yeah, right. That's right. Because they're asking people to revert their documents back.

Yeah, exactly.

Particularly. And I, I can't remember which state it is.

Tennessee.

It is Tennessee where they're taking licences away. Yeah, yeah. Until you revert your. Your agenda marker back, they're not letting you drive.

Yes.

What just so. Yeah. That's outrageous and scary. And we're also seeing some of the effects of the knock on effects of what happens in the US also plays out here and in so called Australia as well. Have you heard much from. Do you have many trans and gender diverse friends back home?

Oh, yeah, lots of them.

How are they experiencing stuff? What's going on for them?

I'm seeing so many people try to figure out pathways to get out of Australia. I'm seeing a lot of my friends. Sorry, get out of the us I'm seeing a lot of my friends trying to find pathways into Australia because they know I'm here and I'm safe. But there's not a lot of pathways for us, not for Americans. You see a lot of protection visas for LGBT people in coming from, like, third world countries.

Yeah, yeah. Not. Not necessarily the us. Not the US I wonder if that will change. I mean, I have definitely spoken to some people from Alaska who have migrated here under protection visas before, but I'm not too sure if personal circumstances also contributed to that and not exclusively because of their trans identity. So what does community look like for you here?

What?

How does community sort of fit in? And how did you find community when you moved here?

Oh, it took some time. I think Facebook helped a lot. You've got a lot of really awesome LGBT and trans groups on Facebook. And so it's connecting with people through posts, finding similar interests. I think actually having that underwear brand has done a lot for me for. For making community. Because there's always the reaching out to people and being like, hey, you would make a great model. Or people messaging me and being like, hey, can I model?

Yeah.

And then, you know, having that platform, that helps too.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Cool. Well, we are now about to listen to, I don't know, something I recorded earlier. I really resonated with this, so I'm just gonna push play. You'll also hear it on the podcast

for some extra bonus storeys and poetry

on queer and trans black experiences, particularly some storeys that have related to me personally that I wanted to share.

If you're listening live, congratulations. We've found enough time to squeeze it in.

But if you're not listening live and you're listening on the podcast. Well, it's definitely on the podcast. This is two storeys, one poem and.

And one short sort of telling of a neurodivergent mind. This one's called Polluted Imprints in a Neurodivergent Mind by Julia Feliz. And then also a poem by Zoe Gammel Brown called Ocean Home from a book that I've read from before on transmission. It's called When Language Broke, An Anthology of Queer and Trans Black Writers of Latin American Descent.

And this edited by Alan, by Alan Pelez Lopez. I have read from this book before on the show as one of my treasured artefacts that I own. So I hope you enjoy.

Polluted Imprints in a neurodivergent Mind by Julia Feliz. As society insists on pressing me for answers about truths long lost ago that the modern world's majority cannot imagine or understand, I find myself responding easily. I have none. Internally, my mind instinctively begins to self soothe. Your outward appearance doesn't define you. You know yourself, where you came from, where you have been, how it made you feel and how you validated yourself when no one even knew you needed validation. Not even you. Your existence is ancestral survival. It is resistance to me. This is the familiar slipping of consciousness that leads to the comforts of my inattentive neurodivergence. Within the safe space of my mind, I can feel myself uninhibitedly scanning endlessly for glimpses of what constitutes my storey. I find myself trying to recall the moment I feel safe enough to tell the world my truth. That moment exists, but at the same time it does not exist. This is because the thought leads me to memories that were forced, forced on me by others. I distinctly say forced because I have never consented to the expectations or the assumptions that have followed me even as I tried to shed them rigorously after I realised they were not mine and never have been. None of the memories I have which are tied to my identity are mine, despite not being mine. The memories I do have undoubtedly shape much of who I was, who I hid, who I have become, and who I had to hide again for my own protection. The world, including those closest to me, is not ready to accept those like me erased despite forming an accepted part of the communities whose blood survives within my veins. The memories carried in me are those shaped by a violent history that was forced on my ancestors and subsequently stole my ability and right to exist safely. This history, my history, is one that has compartmentalised me and those like me for over 520 years. The memories I hold have been built upon a self that have been divided piece by piece according to the byproducts of that history through erasure, homophobia, transphobia, binarism, anti blackness, anti indigeneity, colorism, classism. They are polluted imprints programmed within my mind's eye from the moment I took my first breath and was tagged with an assigned gender at birth. These memories are recollections of a conscious and subconscious journey that has hindered, denied and diluted my identity, breaking it into pieces that are not allowed to exist together. In contrast, when I allow myself to think specifically about my authentic self, I easily sense a deeply sewn, unnamed sentiment that comforts me. This sentiment has always been part of my essence. It has always been there, steadily protected, shielded from the denial of my being and the binary expectations that I have never named as my own, like the memories of the person who I am assumed to be. This part of me, however, has always been an accepted constant, a component of what makes me who I am, which I have known as intrinsically me across my childhood and adolescence and throughout my adulthood. In my soul, I feel it is the acknowledgement of a truth within me that no one else but me has been able to touch, taste, hear, see, and smell. While society undoubtedly talk taught me to mimic its expectations, under the threat of punishment should I veer off my pre designated gendered path, I have always been the feelings that only I have known. Within my own skin, I simply exist, comfortably and at peace. This is my essence, unspoiled by whiteness, insistence on who I am, what I am. Ocean Home by Zoe Gamal Brown My ancestors are from the water. I feel them in my fingers when I walk along the cold coast. I smell my mother's hair, musky and maternal as the ocean air. Now I know why I feel at

ease

when I take deep breaths while I sit by the sea and hear the ocean say, don't go away, don't fret, don't fear, you're supposed to be here.

Thrillhouse Tattoo supports the community any way they can. So of course they joined April Atonement. This is a place that is for everyone. So huge. Thanks for sponsoring our household sub prize. Thrillhouse Tattoo is a proud women and trans non binary led studio that prides itself on caring for its clients like it cares for its community. Not to mention all the amazing art. So subscribe. Renew this April atonement. Win a $400 tattoo voucher with one of their award winning artists. Go to 4zzz.org au you're listening to

Transmission on 4zzz, amplifying the trans and gender diverse voices of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond. And I am joined in studio by an extraordinary local icon. I'm very happy to have her here. I'm scrolling frantically through my notes to find the intro that I wrote. There it is. Okay, I'm so excited to introduce one of the other guests. P.S. has also been on the show this morning and will continue to stick around. But we now have angel in Studio, a burlesque and comedy performer whose work brings together humour, storytelling and powerful Expressions of identity and culture. Angel's presence in performance spaces speaks to both creativity and resilience. And I'm really looking forward to chatting to her perspectives today. Hi, Angel.

Hi. Oh, my God. Hi. How are you?

I'm good.

How are you? I'm good. It's been an interesting morning.

Yeah. A bit frantic to get in here. Hey.

100% truly the POC queer experience.

You mean it's now? Oh, crap.

Well, I mean, I feel that I learned a lot today. Like, the difference from AM to pm. Very important.

There's a song about. From AM to pm, I think.

Is there?

Yeah, yeah. Some. Some really popular R B song back in the 90s or early 2000s, I think. I don't think I have that track right on me right now, but there's a song from. And anyway, I won't. I won't derail the conversation into. Into RB music, but it's so good to have you here and I'm so glad that you are here to chat about race and gender and racism, white fragility, all these things that happen in our. In our community, which is sad, but also true. And I think a big part of the episode today and what inspired me to want to chat to you is because we should be holding community accountable and we want to change some of the things that we're experiencing. We're all one big family together and would be great to come back to a place where, you know, we're respecting each other and the. In the intersections of our cultural identity. You know, we're trans, but culture is also part of our transness. And what does that look like? What does that mean? So we'd love to hear more about what's your storey? How did you get to Brisbane and tell us a bit about, yeah, your journey?

Well, 11 years ago, I got a plane ticket and it was for Brisbane. But so I'm from El Salvador. And yeah, I feel like my journey is very ingrained with my queer journey as well, because I actually had no idea about trans people growing up in El Salvador. And, you know, other people in El Salvador might know them, but, like, maybe I grew up very, like, Catholic, so I had no idea. So when I came here, no idea that being trans was a possibility. Yeah, When I first got here, I got here when I was 18, I was still very nervous about exploring my. Not only my gender identity, but, like, my sexual orientation at the time because, you know. You know, you're, like, raised, like, super Catholic. Oh, my God. I was actually in, like, a youth group. I Know that that's crazy. Like, I was lit in a youth group.

That's common though, right? Youth groups are common, yeah.

But you know, like in a church youth group and all of that. Like, you know, praying and all of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was like, very, you know, like very. Oh, my God. People cannot see the sign, but I'm like holding my hands in prayer. Sign. Yeah, you'll get it. So for me, exploring my queer identity took me a while. I think it took me like a year. I had to meet someone. I met a Colombian friend, actually. He's so fam. And I love that because for me, I always feel. Felt that I had to repress that. So seeing him being able to be so open about his femininity kind of allowed me to start opening that door a little bit, which, thanks God, because I'm so fam. I'm like. I feel like before pre transition, like, I was fam, but like, transitioning fully opened a door for me and I'm like, thanks God, because I cannot hold it in, you know?

Yeah, much gave you permission.

Yeah. Which I think that's so important. I mean, representation is so important. Transpissibility is a whole other thing, though. It's a whole different topic because I feel that trans visibility is super important. But also I understand why people are not. Choose not to be visible. Because being visible is. It's hard, you know, like, do you think it's extra.

Do you think it's extra hard being a person of colour in. In brisbane as and trans, 100%.

I feel that, you know, I have this joke on my comment set that it's kind of like I'm kind of collecting minorities for my bingo card. But I had this really bad experience where someone like a member of our community, like a CIS gay man CS y gay men, very important CIS white gay men. He went on a tyre against me, like, because he was drunk and he started from, you know, you should go back on your boat to, you'll never be a woman. It's crazy. So I feel that, yeah, being busy poc is hard, period. Like, even though I do have the knowledge, I do have the privilege that I'm white, passing the moment I open my mouth, you know that, you know, like, you definitely know that I'm not from here. Oh, my God. I fully lost drug.

But there's also this extra element, right, where, you know, as a femme presenting trans woman, you. You're kind of. You can pass. And then when you open your mouth, people hear the tone of your voice. But then they. This extra element, they hear your accent as well. So there's like two things happening there. And, you know, that might be a shock for some people, particularly with how white Australia is. Australia is so white. And I feel like Australians generally don't have a very good sense of Latin American culture.

Oh, God, no.

No, not at all. They don't even know how to dance, which is depressing.

Oh, my God. Actually, it's such a cute storey, but that's so true. They don't know how to dance. My boyfriend's trying to learn, though, which I love. But I feel like, also, because the Latin experience, from the white Australian point of view gets reduced to. You're either Colombian or. Or Mexican or Brazilian.

Yeah.

Like the other countries don't exist, which is crazy. And when people insult you, they purposely will tell you that you're from those countries if even if they know that you're from a different country. It's just. It's by default. They're like, oh, you know, you're not Colombian. Yeah. Or like, yeah, I don't know. It's like. But also, I feel that the Latin identity gets reduced to a stereotype that were loud, that were spicy. Ate the word spicy so much.

It's just an. It's just a code for ethnic, Right?

Oh, my God.

Oh, you're so spicy. Quote unquote, you know. Huh? I know what you're saying. Yeah.

Actually. Oh, my God. I know that. We're definitely going to talk about the intersection between the queer community with, you know, trans and poc. But also, being trans and PC on dating apps was crazy.

Oh, no.

Because, like, which. Why are they going to choose to fetishize me for? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Which thing today?

Yeah. It's like, yeah, being transom PSU is definitely, definitely really tough. I feel like sometimes it just gives people more ammunition. I kind of feel like they hit, you know, like in Mario Bros. When they have the little thingy that they hit. Oh, my God. On Mario Kart when they get like, the little power ups.

Oh, yeah, the power ups. Yeah.

And it's just like rolling and rolling. That's what they hear the accent, they hear my tone of voice and they're like, what am I doing, say, right now, you know?

Yeah. Oh, you're gonna get the blue shell.

Yeah, damn. The blue shell is a completion for everything. Honestly, I.

You're like, oh, I can get a banana.

Yeah, banana is fine. Potassium, you know? But, yeah, I feel that. Oops. Oh, my God. I'm so Sorry, I fully lean back.

No, you're fine. The chairs are squeaky in this studio.

That's fine. I like them. I feel like, you know, squeaky keeps you grounded.

Squeaky over spicy.

You know, squeaky over spicy. That's going to be my new tagline.

Yeah.

I thought the most transphobia and racism I have received is not even from like CIS straight men. It's been from like CIS white gay men, which is crazy when you think about it.

Yeah, I. It's almost like white men in broadly regardless of sexuality have a lot to hold and answer for.

Oh yeah.

You know, so it's, it's understandable that it kind of bleeds into, into our queer community. I also find, and I mean, I'll get your thoughts on this as well. We'll talk a bit more about it because I wanted to read that awesome post from Tara Knight, which I'll, which I'll read, I'll read out shortly. But you know, I think there are also some parallels between white CIS gay white trans women spaces. There are some overlaps with, particularly with race. I don't know if I can't, I can't really speak to the gendered aspect of this, but I've definitely experienced racism from white trans people in the same way. You know, people are like, oh, what an exotic name. I've heard the word exotic so many times and I've had people like, oh, where are you from? I don't know, north side of Brisbane. What are you talking about? You know, so people make a lot of assumptions about me. Also, I like racism is like, it's such a difficult thing because it's experienced within our own communities as well with colorism. I don't speak Spanish, so I find that Latin American communities in Brisbane don't treat me like I'm a real Latino because I don't speak Spanish. And so then I don't spend a lot of time in those spaces because I don't feel like I'm accepted. But then I don't really feel white enough to be in completely white spaces all the time. So I end up in this limbo. But how have your experiences been with white queer or trans spaces?

To be honest, I took a massive break from queer spaces the moment I started my transition because I felt that my identity was questioned more than in non queer spaces. Like I felt that I needed to be super passing in order to, for my transition to feel valid in the eyes of others.

Wow.

Yeah, I felt like, I mean, given I acknowledged, but also not an excuse because like I know that I did drag back in the day, you know. So something that was really triggering for me is I. I stopped doing that. I would be at a bar in a queer space, like, wearing jeans and a T shirt, and people would be like, oh, what time are you on? And I'm like, literally wearing jeans and a T shirt. Like, yeah, it's crazy. Like, does it look like I'm performing? You know what I mean? So I definitely took a massive break. I. Yeah, I have not really been around queer spaces because it just feels like my transition needs to be at a certain point, which is crazy because you will think that in a queer space you will feel safe enough. Especially like in the awkward stages of the transition. There it is, you know, you should feel accepted. It's already high enough to do it.

And you're vulnerable. You're so vulnerable. In the beginning, we're just little babies, you know, scary.

And you don't know how to do things. You know what I mean? That's the most important thing. It's like when you. Especially when you first start your transition, you don't know how to do the things you need the information. And it's just. Yeah, it can be. It can be a little bit scary. So I kind of retreated myself. I was also super lucky to have, you know, the community from this for, like, super grateful. And also I know some of the girlies from House of Alexander. They were amazing with, like, tips and stuff.

Shout out to House of Alexander.

Yeah, yeah, House of Alexander. So I am grateful for the trans woman that have helped me in my transition, but I did avoid the queer spaces because I didn't know if I fitted in, which is crazy. I felt more of a stranger and thinking about, you know, I've been. I hate to say this word, but I've been in the com. I was going to say scene, but no, I mean, I've been around for a while. So, you know, it's. It was a crazy change for me because I've been performing for like, seven years at that point, so I didn't know a lot of people. But I feel that the moment I started my transition and stopped performing, I felt fully alone. I was like, damn, okay, I don't belong anymore.

Kind of.

Yeah.

If you're not performing in community, then you're obviously therefore not in community.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's crazy because that probably. That's probably what you need them the most. You know, when you start something like that.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. You really. You had a really good question just before as well. And I forgot about it. No, no. This is like. It was like, about. About passing. Yeah. Also. Oh, my God.

Completely.

Side note, but I feel that something that why trans people forget, especially white trans woman, is that passing is easier for them because we're based on the Western standards of beauty, which means society sees any, like, facial features from our cultures, they immediately classify them as masculine.

Yeah.

So sometimes, like, white trans woman, forget about that. And I'm like, not girly. You have it.

Like, you're like, I'm a Latina. That's why I look like this. Thank you.

100%. I'm like. I feel that sometimes that also the pressure of FFS comes from that, obviously. Yeah. Like, I fully support people getting ffs.

They want facial feminising surgery.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, sorry. Oh, my God.

But the pressure to do that.

Yeah. Because we want to meet that standard, but it's put on us by society. And I really applaud the girlies that they stay true to their culture, to their facial features, but I feel that that's the pressure of facial feminization is that we're trying to adhere to Western standards of beauty.

Yeah. And, you know, it's whitewashing ourselves. Yeah, you're so right. I want to keep talking to you about whiteness in the trans community and what that looks like for people who don't know, particularly because we have such a white community in Australia. So obviously our trans community is quite white too. So this. These conversations are really important. And angel and I were just talking about how we've actually met before and how we're definitely gonna hang out again because we're gonna go cook food for each other, which is the most Latin thing to do. And it's like, when are we cooking and dancing again?

Oh, my God. Realponi.

Yeah.

And I'll be the white ish person taking advantage of just showing up and taking the food from.

Well, that's what the food's for, is for sharing.

Yeah. I thought that's a Latin experience. You share like community. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I keep moving away from the mic.

You're fine. I can hear you.

Okay. I feel hair dancing. The Latin experience is definitely sharing community by breaking bread together.

Yeah.

Which usually it's not even bread. It's like tortillas, but.

Yes. Let's do it. Let's break tortillas together. Actually, that should be the title of the episode.

Break tortillas.

Yeah. Break tortillas together. Mm, Great. All right, well, I wanted to read this little thing out because I sent it to you before you came on the show today. And it's called what Is White Fragility and why White Trans Women Adopt it by Tara Knight. I just want to, like, give a little bit of, like, some context around what we're about to hear. So I'm going to read an excerpt from this piece. The piece reflects on how emotional responses can sometimes shift or redirect conversations about race and how broader cultural ideas about gender and whiteness can shape behaviour in our community spaces. So Tara Knight talks about. And I'll read this. So white fragility is the pattern where white people and a certain type of white woman have this outsized emotional reaction when race comes up. Like, instead of engaging with what's being said, they collapse into tears and defensiveness and suddenly the conversation is all about their feelings. The idea is that because white people in mostly segregated white social environments rarely sit with the discomfort of racial discrimination, so they've actually built zero tolerance for it, the second it shows up, they sort of short circuit. The button metaphor works perfectly because it's like, press it and the whole mechanism redirects. Suddenly you're managing someone's feelings instead of talking about racism. Class, classic derail, usually not even conscious. And there's this whole phenomenon with white trans women where transitioning into womanhood sometimes means transitioning into that too, because we are taught essentially, and I'll summarise here, we're taught essentially that in order to be feminine, we have to model ourselves to what we see in the mainstream, which is that how white women perform femininity equals being a woman. So sometimes what Tara Knight is saying is that femininity is actually performed by over emotional reaction. And sometimes that also means performing white fragility when it comes to talking about race. Now, and I sent this to you and you were like, oh, this is so true. I feel like I relate to this and I see this. I feel like as a trans man, as a culturally diverse trans man, I've experienced this from white trans women as well, where instead of actually dealing with the conversation of race, they're having big emotional reactions and then I end up having to deal with their reaction instead of like, hey, I'm just trying to talk to you about this. What is your experience of that?

I cannot think of, like, one particular example, but, I mean, you most definitely have heard this term before of the white woman's tears. Yeah, white woman's tears, popular in the POC community. I feel like it also comes from this kind of Phenomenon of pushing down, you're already a minority and you push down the other minority to, like, make you feel better about yourself.

Yeah.

That doesn't always have to be like, in an aggressive way. Like what men do that. You know, that emotional. Emotional. Pushing down is basically what they do. They make you feel bad about being from culturally diverse background, even though you're still part of the same community, you're still trans. They make you feel better about being from the culture. A culturally type of. Oh, my God, my English is not English in today. But that's the POC experience and that's in period. Yeah. I feel that it's a tactic of keeping down the POC community, of keeping you silent, actually, because we're talking with my friend BC shout out to BC body love them. That the term aggressive or those terms I actually used to push you down to keep you silent, you know, so white woman's tears are another tactic of keeping you silent and not talking about the issues that you face as a person, as a culturally diverse person.

Yeah. And it's kind of like we have. It's almost like hierarchy.

Yes.

Right. Like, you know, we have the trans culture and our community, and then within that community, there's different intersections of other experiences that put certain trans people at a greater disadvantage or advantage to others.

Privilege, so on.

That could be class as well. Wealth, where you come from, language, you know, whether English is your first language or not. But also, you know, melanin. How much melanin you got? And so really what we're trying to. I guess the whole point of this show is to draw attention to, like, hey, these things exist within our community as well. But we actually all have one common enemy, which is patriarchy. And when we're putting each other down, we're not.

We're actually knocking all of us down.

We're knocking each other down as trans people. Do you have any. What's a great piece of advice for someone who's, like, trying to do, you know, less racial harm, someone trying to

do less racism, just, like, how do you.

Can you fix this?

You know, like, I think empathy. I feel that empathy is like the biggest solution to everything. Because if you're trying to put yourself in the shoes of someone and the thing is, like, you might make a mistake, you know what I mean? You might hurt someone's feelings and that's okay. You just need to apologise on up to it. Accountability is very important. Empathy, accountability. And just listen to what they're saying. Because if you have hurt someone's feelings, you know, they'll tell you it's okay. It's okay to make mistakes.

Yeah. And it's okay for someone to be like, hey, I'm uncomfortable with what you said and it's okay to be uncomfortable with making a mistake. Like, it's okay.

You know, that's very important as well, because I feel like we have been taught to kind of like swallow that discomfort. So it is very important to remember that you are allowed to feel uncomfortable and you're allowed share it when someone has hurt your feelings. Because you shouldn't feel like you have to silence your emotions for the comfort of, I don't want to say a white person, but for the comfort of a white person or anyone. You know what I mean? Like, you're allowed to feel uncomfortable. And also that includes like white passing. Like, sometimes we have to remember that of the white passing privilege. Like, just because we're from X rays doesn't mean that you cannot racist. Like, you can still be racist if you're culturally diverse. So it's also very important for us to remember that, to keep in mind if, say, for white passing, to keep in mind that privilege as well. And listen to our siblings.

Yeah. Listen to each other. Hold, sit in your discomfort. It's okay. And we can move through it.

Listen.

Listen is really, really important. Listening is one of the really big things. Yeah. I don't know. Piers, do you have anything to say about this?

No, actually I was just about to bring up the importance of listening and you got it. Which is awesome, because that is the most important thing, I think. So often when we as people of colour try to bring up our experiences, people don't want to listen. They will acknowledge before you finish speaking and then talk about things that have

happened to them, redirecting it to themselves.

Exactly. And then everything that you want to say is silence. There's not room for you anymore. And just by listening, it just makes a world of difference for people whose experiences are different than your own.

Yeah. And I think for. That goes for like all trans experiences too, you know, for CIS people, you know, in order for them to be able to be allies to us, they need to sit and listen to trans storeys. In the same way that in order to be an ally for people of colour and culturally diverse people, listening is the same thing. Whether you're trans, whether you're gay and white, listening is still the important element there. And empathy. Right. Like, you know, everyone surely has an experience of marginalisation or feeling excluded in some way. Whether that's primary school or with family or at work or at some point there's been a moment where you've been like, oh, I feel like I'm left out or I'm being treated differently for some reason. Having that empathy, applying it to, you know, our experiences would also be really helpful. Yeah. I don't know. Did you guys have any more thoughts on that?

Oh, my God. Sorry, I didn't mean to. Like my lips. No, I think that's been very well said. Like, everything I got. I feel like. I don't know, I feel like if we all bake a cake made of rainbows. I forgot the line from, you know, Flamingo's Flamingos. I forgot the line. The cake line.

She doesn't even go here.

I wish that I could bake a

cake made out of rainbows and smiles

and we'd all eat, be happy. She doesn't even go here.

Yeah, yeah, but the other line.

Yeah, but it was about that cake.

It was about that cake. But okay, let's say the cake. Empathy. I thought most of the issues in the world will be solved if we were all able to put each other. To put ourselves in each other's shoes.

Yeah, yeah. Just like take a minute to listen and not just hear, but listen, you know, like, what is it like to actually imagine what's going on for someone that's trying to tell you something important, even if it's uncomfortable. Yeah. We're reached the end of transmission now and I just. Yeah, I just want to thank our guests. Thank you so much, Piers and Angel, for coming in. Your voices matter and thank you so much for sharing your storeys today. It's like. And your honesty as well, so. And being vulnerable with listeners. Conversations like this ask a lot and not just from us, the people speaking about it, but also from all of us listening. We've talked about race, gender, white fragility, community and the ways that harm can show up even in spaces that are meant to be, feel safe. Sitting with that discomfort is part of the work and it's how change begins. If you want to keep engaging with these ideas beyond today's show, there are some incredible resources out there for those starting out. How to Be an Anti Racist by Ibram x Kendi is a really accessible entry point for those working in community like mental health or social work. Decolonizing Therapy by Jennifer Mullen offers important insight into practise and is also available via podcast. More broadly, you might want to explore Sister Outside essays and speeches by Audre Lorde as well as a Black, Queer and Feminist Mandate for Radical Movements by Charlene Carruthers and the final book that I'll mention is Black on Both A Racial History of Trans Identity by C. Reilly Snorton. All powerful books that speak to race, gender and liberation. I'll put links to these in the show notes and the 4zzz website 4zzz.org au head to the transmission page. You can see it all there. Additionally, beyond these recommended readings, what we do with this conversation matters. So I want to leave you with some questions. If you are a queer white person, how are you showing up for your community? When you are challenged, do you lean into accountability or do you retreat into defensiveness? And what are you actively doing to build spaces that are genuinely inclusive, materially supportive and accountable to trans people of colour? There is joy, culture, wisdom, profound ancestral knowledge and generational strength in these communities, and that deserves not only to be celebrated but protected. There are things you will not see and cannot experience, and that is not a failure. But ignoring the people who do see it is so. Whose voices are you centering? And when it matters, are you willing to step back, to listen and to redistribute power? This conversation doesn't end here. It continues in your actions, in the rooms you are in, in the spaces you shape, the harm you interrupt and the accountability you take. Change is not passive and community is not neutral. It is something we build, protect and fight for together. Thank you so much Piers and Angel.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, we're gonna have so much more food and fun together.

Oh my God, yes.

Have fun and see you all next time week. Bye. Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us every Monday live on 4 Triple Z from 10am or listen to

our podcast on the community radio plus apparent.