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Welcome to Transmission. I am Hazel. My pronouns are she, her, and I'm very excited to have in the studio with me today a wonderful guest. Would you love to give me your names and pronouns?

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Hazel. I'm Nico and I use she, her pronouns.

Excellent. So you are an activist and an author. And today we're going to be talking about some very ser and some very notable stuff which is transness, incarceration and prison abolition. So we'll be getting into that later. I'm very excited to talk with you about that. But first I would like to talk about some news and events. So also a brief little thank you to Jack, station manager in the studio today, helping us out, but also being a very respectful ally and not speaking today. King okay, first of all, I just wanted to talk about how Tomorrow morning at 9am we have a rally at the Supreme Court to support the parent who's currently taking on the Queensland government to court over the ban of youth hormone therapy. So we're going to be gathering respectfully near the court to show solidarity. You can optionally wear dark clothes and bring trans flags and placards. So that again is 9am on Wednesday, tomorrow the 22nd of October, and it's going to be at the supreme and Districts Court, Brisbane, 1415 George Street, Brisbane City. For any of those who aren't in the loop about that, this is in regards to the recent snap ban on under 18 hormone therapy. Now, in lighter, happier news, we also have queer slice and melt LGBTQIA makers markets. So Meanjin's favourite queer makers market has joined forces with the biggest festival of queer art and culture for another year. On Sunday 26th October, they're going to be taking over the lanes Fortitude Valley with a celebration of local queer creatives. So you can get coffee, look at local art and just fill the lane up with energy and excitement. So that's going to be Sunday 26th October from 9am to 3pm in the lane's Fortitude Valley. It's free entry also if you're into that. Additionally, we have TransJoymenjin's crafts and games afternoon, the Halloween edition. Nice and spooky. So that's going to be at New Farm Libraries meeting hall. It's going to be on Sunday to the 26th of October again, this one at 1.30pm to 4.30pm so if you're particularly crafty, you can make it along to both those events if you're interested. And I stay out on the town. But that concludes the news and events for today.

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Transmission Tuesday mornings from 9am till 10am on 4zzz. Welcome back to Transmission. My name is Hazel. I go by she her pronouns. And in the studio today with me is Nico.

And I also use she her pronouns. And my name means people's victory. And it's quite expensive to change your name this date, so please remember it if you can.

Oh my God. Yeah. People's victory. What a profoundly perfect name for what you do.

Thank you.

And speaking, speaking of, for those who don't know, Nico is an activist and an author and just an all around delightful human being who has been working extremely hard for a number of causes but is in the studio today to talk talk to us about transness and incarceration and about prison abolition. So if you don't mind, I'd love to just jump into some questions with you. Would you mind taking us back to the beginning? How did you start working with transgender people in incarceration? What about this work drew you to it?

Yeah, there's so many sort of ways I could start answering that question, but I think I was living in Sydney at the time and I got fired for being trans. And actually the amazing person, Whit from beyond Bricks and bars, who also is on the Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Fund, said you should get in contact with Deb Kilroy. She knows some good lawyers who can sort of like support you. And then, yeah, she gave me the name of someone, ended up meeting them sort of through that process, ended up moving back to Mugginjin Meanjin and studying social work. And then eventually just sort of, yeah, got a job at Sisters Inside and spent three amazing years there supporting trans people in prison.

Right. That's very interesting. So it's sort of, it's personal in a way that you, you suffered that discrimination firsthand and Then it's put you in contact with all these people who are also doing this amazing work of support and it's led you to working with the incarcerated. Yeah.

So it was sort of like, for me, maybe it was kind of an odd way to come into that work, but also had dad who's been in prison and. Yeah. So sort of saw what happens when people are criminalised instead of supported. And I also think as trans and gender diverse people, we are an over criminalised community. And I think I always. Yeah. Think of the words of the great Mariam Carber, who says, to truly understand something, you have to study why it formed and how it came together. And we as a community came together because, you know, black sex workers fought against the brutality on the police, first at the Tenderloin region and then at Stonewall. And we fought for our rights, we organised together and we fought for our visibility and our awareness. And I think that it's easy to forget, actually, that is, that was abolitionist movements, that was organising, that was standing against the police. So I think that really. Yeah, standing against police brutality and over criminalization of our community is fundamental to who we are and probably why we're here today.

That's a really, really interesting angle. There's an undeniable, very strong link between opposing police oppression and just being trans or just being gender diverse or honestly any member of the LGBTQIA community. So that's a very important thing. And when you're thinking about these people that you've supported, when we're talking about people who are in the prison system, what are the challenges that they face day to day? So not just physically, but emotionally, what makes it extra challenging in this system?

Yeah, I think it's really easy when we're talking about trans people in prison, to reduce it to, well, it's a trans woman in a men's prison or it's a trans man in a women's prison. But what that does is it pits people in prison against each other to say they're the problem. But if we act, what we know is that prison itself is the most violent environment we can ever force a person to be, to live in a cage and expect them to rehabilitate or expect them to, you know, get the support that we all need at different times in our life.

Right. Yeah.

So I think the abolitionist perspective when we're talking about trans people in prison is we have to highlight and acknowledge the prison itself is the most violent environment. You know, it's the guards, the screws, like the being in a Cage itself.

Yeah.

Is the problem. It's not other people in there. So totally as trans people, no matter what prison we were to go to, they're all wrong and they all shouldn't exist. So I really never want to reduce it to, oh, let's send this, let's build a trans prison or let's send someone to the right prison. There's no prisoners, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Totally right. It's easy to sort of look at this as an angle of like, oh, someone from my community is ending up in this place full of terrible people. But it's really something different. It's. This place is terrible to everyone there. And there may be ways in which it is additionally awful for someone who is trans or gender diverse to be in that situation. But that's based on the institution itself. Right. More than it is the individuals present.

And I think also we, the process of criminalising someone takes one action, one point in time and, you know, applies that to their whole life, sometimes for like years and years afterwards, when what we know the biggest protective factors to the over criminalization of our community is life saving, gender affirming, health care, free and equitable access to it.

Yeah.

You know, is housing, is employment, is education, all the things that we're struggling with at the moment and of course.

All things that are impossible to access from prison as well. And I think it's, it's definitely such a good perspective to say, you know, if you want to see less crime, if you want to see something done about crime in society, the people who commit crimes, putting them in an environment where they're just going to be given less access to support, less access to opportunities to assist themselves or to be assisted, it's not going to improve anything. Right.

Yeah. And I think that safety, justice and accountability is something that we should all be talking about because I know all communities want it. Whether that's criminalised people, you know, people that haven't aren't being criminalised, whether that's us as a trans community, whether that's terfs, is that we're all really speaking about the same thing, which is safety, you know, justice and our rights.

Yeah.

It's just that some of those people, those that, you know, think people should be in cages or turfs, don't think that safety and justice should apply to everyone.

Right. Or they feel that our safety and justice is somehow a threat to theirs. Right.

And that we're not valid of. That we're not valid of our humanity.

Totally. And I think that probably is one of the most Upsetting things about the prison system at large. Right. Is so many people, even people that I consider very level headed people, fall immediately into this position that if someone is in that system, it's all good, it's fine and dandy now. Like there's. There's no more empathetic thought beyond that. Yeah, beyond that assignment, you know, and.

That train of thought is so important because it highlights how effective the prison system is. Because you remove and you isolate someone and then they're not. We're no longer seeing them on our way to work or on, you know, on our way to. What we're doing on the weekend is because people are removed and deemed no longer worthy of being in community. And we can't see them, they're invisible, they're not present like in our community events. So it is really effective in that.

Yeah, totally. So to bring some light on that, when you've worked with these people, is there a moment or a story that has stayed with you? Is there something that sort of identifies that struggle, particularly for someone who's transgender or gender diverse in the prison system?

I think every day that I had gone inside and, you know, every day that I've supported someone who's come out presents its sort of challenges and the strength of our community. I do sort of one. There was one moment, I think one of the first times I went into a prison, one of the screws said to me, isn't it so great that the people that are trans inside can just get surgery and whatever medication they want now? And it was, it was a moment of kind of shock because it made me realise what people, who people think of that system versus what was actually going on. It's like there is trans people inside who have been waiting years to even access a doctor, let alone get hormones.

So there's a total disconnect between what is really happening in there and what the general impression, even for someone in the system thinks is going on there. That's really interesting. So in a way you're saying one of the biggest problems faced here as far as accessing support is just a complete lack of understanding or a lack of insight into what's really happening.

I think that's one of, obviously one of the issues. I think what, you know, any way that we define abuse and control is power over someone. Right? And that is exactly what the prison system is set up and designed to do.

Right.

And every day, you know, people are abused and controlled and that's violent and that takes lives and it, you know, takes people's physical and mental safety away.

Totally. And when we talk about the experiences of trans and gender diverse people outside of the prison system, often one of the most, one of the most common experience for a trans or gender diverse person is the questioning or the denial of your identity and who you are. And often that can take violent forms and, or just be generally abusive verbally, emotionally and so on. Obviously this kind of thing does happen inside the incarceration. Sorry, inside the prison system to those who are incarcerated. How, how does that different environment affect the people who are undergoing that experience?

Oh, I think that yeah, every day people's true and correct identity and authentic identity is stripped away from people in prison and is denied and is used to target against them. I've, you know, sat with women as they've told me that they have not been allowed to, you know, access Brasil. But then they've also, when they take their shirt off because it's so hot, they've also been penalised because they are not allowed to be a trans woman with breasts and their shirt off inside a men's prison. So, you know, you're kind of, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. There's no winning. I've seen, you know, heard of a woman that I supported who was made fun of because, you know, nine men were led into a room and like when she asked for a new mattress because of what took place in that room, she was laughed at and made fun of and told, well, she was the problem for being, you know, a trans woman in a men's prison. So that level of violence and that level of sexual assault is, is deemed okay inside prison for our community.

Yeah. Or in a way, not just okay, but facilitated. You know, it, it's awful to think about, but you're right, it's not just that. It's not just the same abuses that we see on the outside, but they're empowered and that, you know, what little recourse there is in the outside world is it's doubled down in there. It's seen as further problems. It's really heavy and it's really disappointing. And I think that's why it's so important. The work that you're doing or the work that you're facilitating bringing to our audience today.

Yeah. So I definitely, you know, would, I think, I'm sure that Azarco and yourself have gonna get the amazing Ella at Sisters Inside on because I know that she does that work every day. And then also, yeah, really trying to make sure that we as a community and we as a trans community can, can raise those funds for the Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Fund. Because like we were saying earlier, you know, we're completely volunteer run.

Yeah.

And we've got $12,000 a year that we try to get into so called Queensland prisons. And that fund is essentially got no money and it's a national fund. So there's a lot of people that sort of need that support for sure.

So let's go over that again. What's it called and where can people find that?

Yeah. So if you just Google Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Fund, it's a GoFundMe that you can donate directly to. Like I said, there's no money that's taken by any of us or anyone else. It's just the money that GoFundMe takes. I don't know what amount that is, but the rest.

But a typical cut. Yes.

And I know that I think it's been a couple of hundred thousand that we've been able to get directly into trans and gender diverse people in prison in the last couple of years.

That's fantastic. And again, you know, it's not a lot of money that we're talking about here on a large scale when we consider the help that it's doing. And for anyone who's considering or on the fence or anything about that, you have to consider, particularly as a trans or gender diverse person, there's not a lot between you and the people who are suffering in these circumstances. It's absolutely could be in you in that position and it's absolutely something you should feel sympathy and care for. So maybe let's touch on sort of a different angle to look at this from. And I wanted to ask, is there, have you ever seen a moment sort of of compassion within that system, the people in it, maybe an inmate, maybe a policy shift? Is there sort of an example of something that you see shows compassion within that system?

I don't see any compassion from the system itself.

I guess.

You know, I'm an abolitionist and so I don't. Yeah. Believe good comes from a broken system that is working how it's designed to, but that is so violent. But what I do think is the strength of our community to, you know, show up every day unapologetically, completely yourself in such a violent and hard system is, is real, real strength. And I also do think that, you know, policy changes like the Birth Deaths and marriages amendment bill is so important into making sure that more of our community don't end up in the Prison system. Because having your right name, your right, you know, pronouns, or your right name on documentation. Sorry. And being able to access our health care is the biggest protective factors to going in. So any, any sort of legislation, changes or policy changes that enable us to be who we really are, that is important to affecting, you know, how many of us go into prison.

That makes complete sense. So, you know, obviously the system itself is not something that you see that support from. It's not something that you see that kindness from. But changes like that offer us opportunities to help and assist people to not end up in that position or to be supported better in that position.

Yeah. I don't think you can, you know, put, put someone inside a cage and strip them from their community. Strip them from free access to, you know, their housing, their employment, their family, their kids and call that.

Yeah.

Anything other than violence.

Yeah, of course. I mean, there's, especially when you lay it out, there's a craziness to the idea that you can sort of look at someone and be like, you know, the conditions of your life led you to make some terrible mistakes. We're gonna make it much worse for a number of years and then see if you feel better afterwards. Like, it's absurd.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm sure even you and I, as strong, passionate, community driven trans women, I'm sure that we both made a lot of mistakes, or I don't want to speak for you, but, I mean, I made a fuckload of mistakes before I was able to get the healthcare and be who I was, you know, really wanted to be.

Absolutely.

Because you're trying to find you, trying to find yourself. And I think that, yeah, like we said earlier, people are criminalised for multiple reasons. We know that something might be legal. Doesn't make it good.

Yes.

You know, how many people are exploited financially because or because of their labour every day? It's legal. Doesn't make it just. Or good.

Absolutely.

So much. What is illegal isn't necessarily bad.

Yeah. Like, you know, you know, people stealing food because they don't have any to eat or, you know, sleeping in public places. Like, he's like, it's. Morality is not necessarily a one for one with law. I think that's definitely an excellent way to look at it. So I want to support. Right. Many people do. I imagine a number of our listeners want to support. What does that look like in practise? You know, what's, what's a. What do. What can we do? And also, like, what do you do? How does this Connect.

Yeah, so definitely, obviously, which is why I'm here. Please give what you can. I know it's a really hard time of year and it's not a. Yeah, it's a very expensive time of year for a lot of people coming up to the end of the year. But if you can give to the Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Fund, if you Google it and maybe we could put it in the show notes or on the stories, is please give what you can to the Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Fund. Like we said, it's all, all donations go directly to trans and gender diverse people in prison. Yeah, it's running really low. I think last time I checked it was less than $5,000. We give $1,000 just in Queensland a month and it's a national fund, so we need $12,000 a year for so called Queensland. And yeah, this is money that allows people to buy all the things that are so expensive in prison, like phone calls to family and to lawyers, you know, two bras, the correct underwear makeup, all those life saving, gender affirming items that people need but can't afford all the time in prison.

Yeah, you know, it's. I feel like it's important to keep in perspective here. This isn't just to sort of make life pleasant for trans people in prison. This is to bring it up to the standard of everyone else who is suffering greatly in that system as well. You know, this isn't necessarily like, I don't know, it's very easy to view this kind of thing as like a kindness or something like that, but it's absolutely the bare minimum. This is just to even try to approach the baseline for people who are already in a terrible position.

The amazing Deb Kilroy from Sisters Inside taught me this big life lesson that I'll never forget. And she said help is a sunny side of control. We don't need to help each other. We can support each other, we can walk alongside each other when we want that or when we need that. But yeah, we're not here to help people in prison. We're here to try to support them to get basic items like, you know, bras, underpants, the correct shoes, makeup, and just those items that we as trans people need to express some parts of our correct gender. And maybe that's what gets us through, you know?

Yeah.

Whether you're in prison or not, those things can get us through sometimes, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fantastic quote. I think it's an. Yeah, that's one of those quotes that's going to stick with me for a long time, I think. So what keeps you going? This is overwhelming. This is heartbreaking. This is very tough stuff to work with. What motivates you to keep going with it?

Yeah, in many ways I think abolition is something that I'll always practise with and it's obviously something I would never not try to work towards and support. And I think in my work at Open Doors now that obviously trying to provide resources and connection and that community to young members of our, you know, trans and gender diverse community, that is abolitionist work. Because we need that sense of pride and that connection. We need to know who we are, we need to be proud of who we are. We need to understand our history. That's the pillars of connection. That's our biggest barrier to being. Continue to being over criminalised. Yeah. I think that just the power of who we are as a community and the people that I get to see every day show up so unapologetically themselves as strong, trans and gender diverse people will always keep me going.

Absolutely. It's community first, Right?

Yeah.

And you're right, I mean that's, that's part of why I like doing transmission on radio as well. Right. It's that just being able to really expose yourself to and be involved with this community is a really special treat. And to be in the position to be confident about it and to help others to be confident about it is itself also a very special treatment. And it's community first. But like you said, it's, it's the whole community. It's supporting everyone in that community. There's. There's no point at which someone who is trans doesn't become trans through their behaviour. Right. So I think you're totally correct. It's supporting everyone.

And it's so nice to do, you know, to do days like this because it reminds me how connected we all are. Like in the sense connected in the sense that we're all working for this common goal which is the safety, the justice, the, you know, the visibility, the awareness and the rights of our community. Yeah, we have different ways of doing that. The amazing Ella's sisters. You know, you and Azaka are on transmission. Some of us are at Open doors, like. But we're all really fighting for the same thing.

Yeah, totally. And I think it's. It's fantastic how much networking there is between that as well. And you know, I. Between just those three institutions, you know. Institutions, the wrong word for it, but you know what I mean, These three groups, I feel like Most trans people I've met and known throughout Brisb. No, at least one of them, like, there's. There's that kind of support. I mean, someone I know who does youth work contacted me saying they're working with a trans kid and they're not really sure what to do and if I have advice, and I sent them straight along to open doors because, you know, amazing. It's. This is. This is it right? Like, part of being the trans community as well as it's a small community, there's only so many places you can look for support, and it's so important to focus in on them and surround them and support them, just like the incarcerated trans and gender diverse fund, something that is going to do huge amounts of help for people in this community. So, again, coming back to the topic of these people who are incarcerated, who are transgender and gender diverse, for the people who can't necessarily speak for themselves because of this system, what do you think is a message that would be important for them to get out to our audience?

I definitely don't. Yeah. Would never want to speak for anyone else. And, you know, I think that we all have such different experiences and we have different ways of. And different roles in community. As someone who, yeah. Has been able to support people in prison and walk alongside people as they get the supports that they want in their life, is that we've all deserving, no matter what, you know, who we are, where we're at at the moment, where we're going, we're all deserving of our humanity and our. Yeah. Our respect and our rights and. Doesn't matter if you're in prison, out of prison, you know, been transitioning for a day, 20 years. Where you're at is that we are a community, and that's what. Yeah. Is going to keep us together and keep us strong. And it's, I think, just remembering that we really deserve that humanity and we deserve our respect.

Absolutely. Yeah. I have nothing but praise and agreement for what you're saying. I think it's so important, and I think for a lot of this community, it's something that's hard to think about. It's something that's hard to approach the topic of. I mean, for many trans people, it's a big fear, this idea of ending up in that system. So, you know, we are one community. We are a group that needs to support itself and also needs all the support it can get.

And I also. I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and beg for my humanity or for other people's. But when we say none of us are free until all of us are free, that's exactly what we mean. If we, as a trans and gender diverse community, aren't standing on the front line for the most, you know, criminalised population in the world, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, we're probably not standing for much. What about all the trans and gender diverse people that have been killed in Palestine? If we're not standing for them, if we're not standing for the people that are in prison, we're probably just standing for our own rights. Or not standing for much.

Yeah, or, you know, as it's been put for other groups, you know, wanting to be part of the oppressor and not necessarily lift others from it. I think that's totally correct. And this is sort of a distillation of that. Right. You know, to support something like this is to say stronger than ever. Until all of us are free, none of us are free. And I. I really, really applaud you for that and for that work. So, again, that is the Incarcerated Trans and Gender Diverse Community Fund. You can look it up. It's on GoFundMe. We will have a link for it on the podcast. It will be available if you. Look, I want to say a big thank you, Nico, for coming in today.

Oh, this has been so lovely. Thanks for having me, of course.

I mean, it's just been an absolute pleasure and an absolute honour. If you're someone who's involved at all in trans community activism, in, you know, the protests or anything, you will have seen Nico around, even if you don't know that you've seen her around. She's fantastic and continues to do amazing work. Where can they find you if they want to support you?

I'm on Instagram as Nicobrocky and that's about it, I think.

Fair enough. Instagram's the place to go. And that's Nico spelt N E C H O. Thank you so much for listening to Transmission.

See you next Tuesday. Date nights, 10am on four triple Z.