At 4ZZZ, we acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we broadcast. We pay our respects to the elders past, present, and emerging of the Turrbal and Jagera people. We acknowledge that their sovereignty over this land was never ceded, and we stand in solidarity with them.

Transmission on 4ZZZ, amplifying the trans and gender diverse community of Meanjin, Brisbane and beyond.

Good morning, you're listening to Transmission on 4ZZZ. My name's Sophie and my pronouns are she/they.

My name is Elliot, my pronouns are he/him.

My name's Ro and my pronouns are they/them.

And I'm Ruth.

And yeah, today, a bit of an interesting topic, more, more for the allies, I reckon. Um, so language, trans language. I believe that language sort of changes how people view us and culturally. And if you're into like Metal Gear Solid, like memes and all that sort of— Yeah, I sort of wrote a little guide and I think, I think we're just gonna riff about that today.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, and I'd also like to start the show with an acknowledgement that 4 Triple Z broadcasts on the lands of the Turrbal and Yuggera Yuggera people. We pay our respects to the elders past and present and acknowledge this, that sovereignty was never ceded. I guess, you know, we should do Trans 101.

What is trans? What does that mean?

What does trans mean? Yes, exactly, great question. So trans, um, it's an umbrella term whose gender identity is different from what we were assigned at birth.

And so yeah, I mean, it, uh, is a shortened form of transgender, right? Like It used to be, you know, I think people typically remember 20, 30 years ago, you know, transsexual, or even prior to that, the really medicalized, you know, hermaphrodite, for not just transgender people, but anybody that was kind of gender non-conforming or anything as well. But language has evolved over time.

Yeah, and continues to evolve as well. Like, you know, in a few years we might not even be called transgender. There might be a different sort of update?

To my understanding, transsexual is still used as a medical term, but it doesn't refer to the whole community anymore, which is why people say trans, because transgender can be people regardless of like whether or not they want to or have medically transitioned.

But like transsexual specifically refers to people who have, although a lot of people who are on HRT or have had affirming surgeries also don't like the term. Um, even though some people still use it.

Yeah, but I've seen it a lot with a lot of old gays. Like, I've got a couple of old lesbians, old queers in my life that still use transsexual, and I feel like I've seen a couple of young people trying to bring it back and more like reclaiming that word. But I think I definitely like transgender as a safer, like, all-encompassing term.

Yeah, it definitely refers to the, the whole community, but that's, I think, why a lot of people say just trans. Because yeah, there's a lot of diversity in the language that we use. So I mean, it's, it's a very contentious term these days, but the term transvestite was used by a lot of people we now call transgender, um, although we don't usually use that anymore. The reason why we started saying just trans was to include everyone under the umbrella.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that really, uh, speaks to how individualistic a lot of this language is and, um, how different it can mean to everybody.

Yeah, and like, there seems to be a little bit of discourse about like, is non-binary transgender either? And the definition here is people whose gender is not exclusively male or female or is on that spectrum, because gender's a spectrum.

It's— I mean, it's in the name, right? Like, binary gender experience is male or female, and if you're non-binary, you're Not one of those two. Yeah, like, I mean, exclusively.

Yeah, like, I consider myself transfeminine. I may not say I'm a trans woman. Still, still working that out, you know, gender and all that. Um, what is gender? But yeah, like, I, I consider myself non-binary, and it more fits me in a way that, like, I don't know, I, I feel a lot, a lot more comfortable because it gives me a lot more area to play with.

Yeah, a bit of a freedom of expression. Yeah, you know, you don't— if you're strict within the binary, you're stuck in, in what those expectations are, you know. Like, I'm what some people would say is a binary trans guy, and when you look at me, you go, oh yeah, that's, that's a dude, you know. I've got a beard. Oh dude, I wear, I wear, you know, a lot of you know, typically binary, you know, male attire. But also I like to femme it up a bit sometimes. I like to, you know, wear some, wear some fun makeup, fun outfits, wear a cutie little dangly earring, you know. Like, does that make me non-binary? Who knows?

Yeah, I mean, it's just clothes at the end of the day.

Exactly.

Yeah, go into that later in the guide with, um, clothes and stuff, um, because like, you know, sometimes I I just want to be like, yeah, nah, go on, bloody. Wear singlet shorts and, you know, drink a beer and hear my 4X. But that doesn't make me any less transfemme or any less non-binary.

Do you know how many women I know that drink 4X? Because it's good beer.

But by the way, drinking 4X doesn't make you a man. I'm sorry, that was a gross generalization.

That's, I mean, Saying that 4X is a good beer is, is subjective, just like language is subjective.

Yeah, and, and evolving. And yeah, all right, so yeah, um, cisgender, um, not a slur like as a lot of conservatives seem to think it is. Um, but yeah, people whose gender identity matches the, um, sex they were assigned at birth. It's, it's a neutral descriptor, just like trans people often claim it's a slur because they think gender diversity is bad or unusual. And I've noticed like, you know, oh, cis is a slur, because they don't like transgender people, and it's kind of an extension of that.

I think it's also like this, this anti-label rhetoric that a lot of people have, right? Like, have you experienced this, you know, either any of you, where like you're talking with a cishet person and they're just like super anti-label?

Yeah, definitely. And I think specifically on like the cisgender stuff, I feel like people don't like being referred to oppositely or like alongside trans people. They want to— they like the labels of being called a man or a woman, but then if you attach anything to that, people get a bit iffy about it.

Yeah, very used to being like, we're excluding you, we're just normal.

Um, and now it's— although like this, the term cisgender is like, I think like 40 years old or something, but it's only come into public use, common use, in the last 10 years. And a lot of people—

It's Latin roots.

Yeah, but it wasn't used by the Romans. Like, it was invented by scientists in the '80s, and by cisgender scientists in the '80s and '90s. Um, so if it's a slur, it's a very funny one that was invented by that community. It's a lot of people who don't like being referred to as a thing. Like, they're not trans, but they'd would rather be just referred to as not trans. Um, and I've met a lot of older people, like 50s, 60s, who haven't come into the terminology until recently, and they conflate it with being straight. And they're like, oh well, I was— suddenly I'm straight now. What am I? What's this cisgender? Like, it's— they don't understand that the terms are not mutually exclusive. You can be cisgender and bisexual, or you can be trans and straight.

Yeah, I mean, Sexuality and gender are 2 completely different things. My sexuality has changed over time, um, and so has my gender. I've become a lot more sapphic over the past 4 years. I don't know whether that's the estrogen or just me going, this is who I am, this is what I like. I mean, way back when I was a gay man— don't know where I was going with that.

You were a gay man too?

Yeah.

I did like 8 years as a gay man. I have a, I have a BA in gay.

Oh yes, 8 long hard years.

In the mines.

In the gay mines, yeah.

Yeah, I have the opposite experience, you know.

In the amal mines.

In the amal mines.

Doing a tour. I was 8 years as a— well, 8 years, is that right? Yeah, about that, of being a lesbian before transitioning. And now I'm— and then I was like, yeah, I'm a straight man. And now I'm like, oh no, I'm bi.

I did like 6 years as a trans man and then popped out the other side of it vaguely non-binary, gender non-conforming, a bit more femme. I don't know, done the whole circle.

Love that. You've just got to rack up, you know, you're gonna hit all those letters.

Gender? I hardly know her.

LGBT. What's next on the list?

QIA+. Yeah, like gender Pokémon. I like it.

Gotta catch them all.

Wait, where's my list gone?

You've lost it.

Oh, don't tell me I Oh, did you close it? Oh, I think I closed it because I'm a silly billy, but luckily I've got keyboard shortcuts because I'm great.

Um, Ctrl+Shift+T.

Yeah, I've got a little guide here. Did a little guide, a little—

Wrote up a little guide?

A little bit of in-person research, yeah. Took estrogen for like 4 years as a bit of research. Um, so I don't know.

That's credentials.

Yeah, I've got like a—

Got some lived experience.

PhD in estrogen. Yeah, I mean, this, this guide is like— I wrote it for 4ZZZ, you know, the, the dos and don'ts. Now some random person on the radio is going to tell you what not to do. Um, take it with a grain of salt. So when talking about trans people, use names and pronouns like that you're given, and if you don't know their pronouns, keep Keep language neutral, respectful, and matter-of-fact. If you do happen to slip up, you know, just quick, oh, I'm sorry, move on. Don't make it as like a, oh, I've—

Yeah, just a, oh, sorry, she, then move on the conversation. Don't even get yourself caught up on it.

Yeah, try not to do it again. You know, just big thing, treat trans people as normal because we are. We're just people. People that express our gender like anyone else.

And you go to the grocery store, you're a regular guy. You go outside in the world, you're a regular person.

Okay, why so keen?

Put my pants on one leg at a time, you know. And actually, when talking about people, focus on the person, not their transition. Like, if, if I have a guest on and that, say, is a politician, I'll be like, John Smith, the socialist member for Townsville. Um, you know, the dream.

Yeah, transgender socialists in Townsville, like, let's make— let's make it happen.

Yeah, don't bring up their gender unless it's—

unless it's necessary. Like, unless it's brought up and it's actually a point of, like, it's the topic you're— that they want to talk about, that it's, you know, you're circling around that for a purpose. It doesn't need to be mentioned.

Yeah, I mean, being a person that is transgender, people-first language is very important. Like, you wouldn't say the wheelchair person, you'd say—

The person that uses a wheelchair.

Yeah, exactly. And I just so happen to be transgender, so it's always good to, you know, just not make a thing out of it. A bit of a language warning where we might be going into some slurs or archaic terms, so Don't use outdated terms, or like terms conservatives use, like transgendered.

Mm-hmm.

That, that's a big one. Or like sex change is another one. Biological male or female, or born a boy or a girl. Just say someone is transgender, or don't say it at all. Or if you absolutely must talk about it, what's it called?

AMAB, AFAB, like the assigned male at birth, assigned female at birth.

Yeah.

And I don't, I don't like that term, but if you need it as a descriptor, like it's relevant, that's the one that I'd go with.

Yeah. I mean, don't use it unless it's relevant to the conversation. You don't.

Yeah. Or, you know, also just if you're with somebody who doesn't align with their sex assigned at birth, ask them how they feel about it and what language they want specifically.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, Because like we said earlier, language is individual, it's subjective.

Yeah, and it changes person to person. Like, on, on that topic, as in like the past, if you're an ally and you say, oh, so-and-so who is now Sophie, or like, I remember you when you were X name, like, yeah, yeah, thank you for acknowledging the change, but that's not who we are anymore.

You sparked a thought. I— my Boss knows somebody who I also know separately and said to me, oh, that person? I knew them when they were X. And I didn't know this person's old name. I didn't know anything about that.

Don't say that.

Don't do that. That's a form of like outing someone. Like, I, I call it my, my government name, you know. I'm Sophie. now I am Sophie. Like, my past name has nothing to do with my gender expression and name now, so like, why bring it up?

I think another big don't as well is like, don't introduce your lovely transgender friend to a party and say, this is my transgender friend, here's their name. Yeah, um, it's definitely like a detail that can be left out a lot of the time.

Does not need to be a part of the conversation.

Yeah, I mean, unless the person brings it up Like my, my mum, before she passed away, she was like, oh, this is my transgender son. It's like, ah, you're so close. I love you. I know you're an ally, but I'm gonna give you grace. But a few times doing that, mentioning someone's past, is like, oh, they're wearing a little badge that says I am trans.

Some people are very happy and open to be doing that, and they talk to their friends and say, yeah, I'm happy for you to tell people, like, I'm happy to be out and proud and whatever, like That's totally fine. But other people, like, it depends on the situation. Talk to your friends, talk to the people that you're around about what they prefer, what they do and don't want in what situations.

Yeah, and there are situations where people, they might work in a certain industry that's not particularly open-minded, or they might have family that isn't particularly open-minded, and it can be a sore subject for some people. Like, you might be out and proud in your private life, but that doesn't mean that it's always appropriate to talk about someone's— because at the end of the day, if you're if you're transgender, if you're on hormone replacement therapy or anything like that, it's, it's a very—

Or even if you're not.

Even if you're not. But my thing is, it's all very personal, and it's not— it's like, it can be really slanderous gossip to just go around and say, oh, have you heard that Katie's on X kind of a drug and that has, as you know, on the waiting list for the surgery, and how interesting is that? It's like, well, you know, it's like—

It's also a matter of safety.

It is, yeah. And it's, it's just not appropriate. Like, because people talked about Um, this is my personal experience and it's a little bit sad, but I lost my job once because, um, people talked behind my back about the fact that I was starting hormones. I used to work in aged care, um, and it's a big part of the reason why I had to leave was because of the harassment I was getting from other staff members, because it is a very conservative industry.

Yeah.

And it's just— that's a personal medical decision that I made and had nothing to do with my co-workers.

I told one of them.

And it doesn't affect your capabilities at work. It doesn't affect what you can and can't do. Like, it's— and it's nobody's business but your own.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, I tend to be like, I'm on this medication and stuff between trans people, but like, if I'm looking for a job, I won't say, you know, I'm looking to get facial feminization surgery, or—

It's not relevant, you know? Like, I don't tell— I don't tell my job all of the different medic— like, I've got epilepsy. I don't tell them what meds I take for that. I just go, hey, Just so you know, because it might affect my job, I have epilepsy. So if I happen to have a seizure, this is what to do. And it's the same case for anything for transitioning or whatever. Like, you know, if it's relevant to the job for whatever reason, sure, mention the specific thing.

Yeah, like when I was working at the bar on the Gold Coast, I was like, hey, you know, I'm about to start medically transitioning, I'm about to start taking HRT, I might be a little bit moody. Can we put a bench in the cold room so I can cry a lot more? That'd be great.

Why there wasn't one already, like in a retail sector, especially a hospo, like you need a little bench to cry on.

Yeah, just a little, little crying bench. Yeah, just for a little meh.

I could have used that last night.

Um, actually, some common mistakes that, um, I've heard allies say, like people who are full-on allies, they come to marches, they back us up in everything. Just little things, like there was a conversation I was having the other day where it was, so I'm not a trans, but— and it's like, trans is an adjective. Yes, English language. Um, not a noun. And, you know, saying a trans or a transgender strips the person out of the sentence and makes them sound like a category instead of a human being.

Yeah.

Like going back to our previous point of being like people-first language, you know, this person just happens to be trans.

This person is transgender, not a transgender.

Yeah. And again, only if it's relevant.

Yeah, exactly.

One thing I would love to see culturally is people sharing their pronouns. Even if you are a cisgender male, hi, I'm X, my pronouns are he/him. Just normalize it.

It's normalizing that takes away a lot of the power of the othering nature of language.

It's like everyone has pronouns, and the amount of times I've been in situations and I'm like, oh, what are their pronouns? Like, I'm more likely to share my pronouns and make it easier for you if you're an ally. If you go, hi, my name's so-and-so, my pronouns are blah blah, and it's not a big thing. It should just be like, hi, my name is this, my pronouns are this. Not this big, like—

Not a big deal.

And also little things like saying my preferred pronouns. I mean, this might just be a personal thing. I feel that people saying preferred pronouns are like they're a preference rather than like, this is who I am.

Yeah, if you are cool with Whatever. Like, I know people that use, you know, any and all and are happy with any and all, but they go, oh, you know, today I'm— I prefer this, you know, because they are like gender fluid or whatever.

Actually, yeah, that's a good point.

Like, in those situations for sure, but like saying for a regular— like, regular— saying for somebody who has specific set pronouns, they go, yes, this, these are my pronouns, saying that they're the preferred pronouns really takes away that— their identity. Yeah.

They like to be called this. Like, I don't like to be called Sophie. I am called Sophie. That's my name.

It comes across as a little like patronizing.

Yeah, super demeaning. Yeah.

Even if it's not intentional, like just little things like, yeah, my pronouns are, rather than it changes.

It's the same thing as we were saying before, super specific, super subjective.

Yeah, exactly. Every person's different, but this is just a rough guide and should be taken with a massive grain of salt. Um, what else do we have here? Um, ah, um, before we mention functional clothing, so I had an incident a few years ago where I was part of an organization. I'm not going to name them because actually they don't exist anymore. Um, Gold Coast Pride.

Yeah.

Rest in peace.

Um, I was, I was in Gold Coast Pride and I was at tennis and I was fairly early on in my transition. It was like 3 and a half years ago, 4 years. Like, I had just started HRT, just started being femme, and I was playing tennis and I had shorts and a singlet on and like not particularly feminine because I didn't feel comfortable wearing Like a cute little skirt or anything. And not to name names, but someone kept misgendering me that really shouldn't have. And they were like, oh, he/him, he/him, because I was they/them at the time. But he kept calling me he/him because I was wearing functional clothing. It was comfortable. It wasn't feminine, but it was doing the job.

Girls can wear pants. That's fine.

Something I, I feel like I say that every day. I usually wear pants. I, I used to wear gowns occasionally, but I haven't touched a dress in what feels like an eternity because when would I wear one? I don't know. There's no reason every day for me to wear a dress. Dresses are gorgeous, and if for those of us who can commit to that level of style, I have a lot of respect for it.

Or they just pick one up off the side of the road like me.

Yeah.

Um, but like, if you look at women on the bus, most of them are wearing pants because most of them are going to work.

Yeah.

Um, right now I'm wearing work pants even though I don't work, but like, people have called me everything but a—

Unemployed pants.

Yeah, unemployed pants. My professionally unemployed pants. But people have called me everything but a child of God because I wear pants. Um, there was someone who insisted on calling me butch, and as much as I love the term butch, it's, it's a gorgeous like community third gender, it's phenomenal. Pants does not a butch make. Like, I am just comfortable.

Yeah, absolutely. Also, you know, some people have to wear specific types of clothing for, you know, a job or for safety reasons, or there's so many, so many different reasons that people would be wearing different things. Comfort, anything, literally.

High heels, for instance. Oh my god, they weren't originally for quote-unquote females. They were for like nobility. Like they were like—

I think originally I want to say it was like an Arabian horse riding situation.

Really?

Like a couple thousand years ago. It was because it makes it easier to sit in on a horse with like, you know, because it like— I'm not a horse person.

Um, that makes sense.

Yeah, that's why cowboys have heels. And that also then became associated with nobility because horse riding stuff, and then there was a change in society, and then it was like women started wearing them because they were trying to be cool and show power and stuff, and it just became a representation of power.

It was a specific— I forget her name, but it was a specific landed noblewoman who was like— it was very rare, and I think it was the 1500s, for a woman to own her own land, and she was Very short. She was like five foot, and everyone else was like I mean it was fifteen hundred, so everyone was like five foot three. But um, so she had these three-inch heels to like make sure that she was talking with equality to the people around her. Um, and at the time, high heels on a woman was seen as gender nonconforming.

Yeah.

Oh yes, Catherine de Medici.

Oh, she was a Medici?

Italian noblewoman, a Medici. That's cool.

I do not endorse Catherine Medici and everything she stood for.

She was the world's most crazy.

She was 4'11, apparently. Is that even just short or short?

That's tiny. That's a tiny person.

That's a little woman.

Sorry, short queens.

We do not endorse the values of Catherine de' Medici.

But yeah, again, social construct. Gender is wild and the presentation of gender is wild and always ever-changing.

Yeah, so next topic, um, myths. Myths about trans language. Um, so this is, this is one I've heard quite regularly, um, in relation to like non-binary people. Um, they is plural. It isn't. It's both singular and plural and has been for centuries. If someone cuts you off in traffic, what do you say?

Oh, they didn't even indicate.

Yeah, exactly. You don't say, oh, He didn't indicate, you know, unless you see the person. But yeah, they didn't even indicate. They went to the shops and they bought a loaf of bread.

Like, it's super, super common to use they as a singular, uh, singular pronoun. Like, it's just something that's not even thought about, and it's only been recently that people have had an issue with it.

I don't know about you, but I use they/them pronouns because I am in fact 3 little guys in a trench coat. But that's not true for everyone.

And yeah, like Sophie said, it's been used for centuries. I think it was like 1390-something. It's Middle English to use they as a singular pronoun. I think it is newer to use that for someone's just, you know. It used to just be used for, you know, if we don't know what someone's gender is, or if we're referring to someone who could be of either.

Like if you're referring to a lawyer, you'd say they because they could be either a man or a woman.

But yeah, we've been using they as a singular pronoun.

So Yeah, grammatically fine. People just need to grow up.

That's what I was taught in school.

Maybe your English teacher needs to go back to school.

Who taught you? They did. Exactly. Oh, actually, I almost forgot Radiothon. Radiothon's this month.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

And I believe with the full rate, you get 40% is deducted from tax. this year, so that'll be a nice little bonus at the end of the year. Um, we don't know the prizes yet, but—

Don't know the prizes, but I think they'll be listed pretty soon if they're not already. I just haven't had a look, to be honest with you. I pretty much always go for the Passionate sub because I love the shirt and the tote bag. Um, and the, the design— the designs are always sick. Like, I think I have like 4 shirts now. Um, Yeah, they're really cool. Uh, passionate sub is $140. Um, regular subscription is $80 though, and if you've got a, a basic or concession card, you know, you can get it down to $40. You can also subscribe your pet, $25. Not bad.

Yeah, it's not bad. You can subscribe the kids, subscribe, subscribe your wife. They subscribing everybody out here.

If you're a business or a community org, you can also subscribe. Community orgs are $160 and businesses are $250. Jump on in, get on it. It's a great time.

Support the—

support community radio. It's important.

Yeah.

Independent.

Yeah. Great cause. Keep us going for another 50 years.

Yeah.

Super's $500. Solo artist is $85. That, that gets you airplay and really good. Also bands are $160. Community organizations and businesses. Yeah. Yeah. You get live reads. and stuff. I think it's like thousands of dollars worth of value for—

Yeah, not much at all.

I think you get like a campaign with that and like—

Yeah, there's a bunch of different things. It's all on our, uh, all on the 4ZZ website, 4zz.org.au/support. Get the, get the info in ya.

Yeah, I might, I might even do a dumb little impression for your business, like, you might buy 'em, boy, uh, buddy, uh, you might.

That's really good.

That was great.

Oh yeah, you sold me.

I'll buy John Smith's water bottles.

Oh yeah, mate.

Sassy mate. Sorry, that's, that's kind of my vocal stim.

It's great.

I'm not autistic though. Back on the topic of language, another thing I hear is when we introduce ourselves asking for pronouns, people saying, I don't use pronouns. Yeah, you do. Like if if I didn't use pronouns and I I left something in the car, I'd say Sophie said Sophie would bring Sophie's. Yeah, Sophie said Sophie would bring Sophie's car because Sophie thinks Sophie left Sophie's keys in Sophie's jacket. Geez, that's a lot to say.

When yeah, like yeah, no, I think it really goes back to that. Like did you do primary school English? You know singular singular they. Singular they/thems and pronouns. Like, that's what, year 3? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you say I, you say you, you, you say yeah, and everyone uses pronouns. Everyone has pronouns.

I've got a really wholesome little story.

Oh, please, please.

Shout out to the, uh, cave-in poetry nights.

Love cave-in.

Um, me too. We have a bunch of like older people that have never really interacted with with the queer community before that love reading poetry, and it's like a requirement that you get up and you say your name and your pronouns and then you read.

That's cute.

And I've— it is. I've watched all of these like older men go from being like, uh, my name's Brian, I use, um, I'm a he, and then they read their poems, to now like a couple of months later they're like, my name's Brian, my pronouns are he/him, and here's my poetry.

That's cute. I love that. See, that's that, you know, normalization process, right?

That's okay if people don't really know what they're doing and haven't introduced themselves and their pronouns before.

100%. You know, when you're starting anything new, it can kind of feel awkward and a bit weird, but you know, the more we normalize that sort of stuff, the easier and less weird it feels.

Yeah, I mean, just make it part of the language. Make it part of how you say hello to a new person.

Yeah, exactly.

And like, it's— it saves on so many awkward conversations. Like, um, actually, that, that goes into my next point. Like, if you don't know someone's pronouns, ask. Be like, hey, you know, can I get your pronouns? Or what are your pronouns? Or— and I've had people go, oh, so what are you? It's like, uh, I'm Sophie. Um, like, as a trans person, I love being asked my pronouns. It just shows that you care.

Like, it shows you care. And also, for me, shows that you're a safe person. Like, if you care enough to ask, that means that you're knowledgeable enough to, like, understand things a little bit better, and that, yeah, you, you kind of give a crap about how people feel and how people are respected. Yeah.

And Just yeah, it's very like okay. You know what's up, and yeah. Hey, can I ask your pronouns? I'm not gonna get up here if you ask your pronouns. But if someone's like, what are you? It's like oop.

I'm a human being.

Yeah, I'm a human bean bean. Um, so this is for the allies listening. How to be an ally. Being an ally doesn't just stop when the trans person. Like the person's in the room. And little things like if someone gets misgendered, like—

Just a quick and easy correction.

And like, even when they're not in the room, it goes beyond performative at that point.

I think it's especially when they're not in the room because it shows, it shows the people that you're with that it actually does matter. And it's not just about catering to somebody's, you know, quote unquote catering to somebody else's wishes or desires. Right? It's about a clear respect that is long-lasting.

Yeah, and as, as the topic we made before, it's not like, oh, that person prefers it, so call them that while you're in the room. It's—

That is who this person is.

Is who this— but yeah, exactly. It's just this person's identity, and it's not just some sort of like t-shirt they put on. It's, I'm she. If someone's like he in the other room, it's like, uh, Wait, did my gender change because you've you're in the next?

Shredding his gender.

Oh no, don't put me in the box now. Yeah, and one thing, one thing also. Okay, so I'm gonna bring up Caitlyn Jenner now.

Ooh.

Don't hold pronouns hostage. If you don't like someone, don't be like misgendering them. Like if you use it to punish people and. Like, if pronouns are conditional, it's not who the person is. It's—

You're showing, you're showing the person, the people that you do care about, that their pronouns only matter to you because you like them. And then if you don't like them for whatever reason in the future, you won't respect who they are as people. So you're hurting the people that you're close with.

Yeah. And like Caitlyn Jenner, I believe she's an awful human being and But I don't then misgender her because she's, she's a traitor to trans people, in my opinion.

And a murderer, I'm pretty sure.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

Allegedly. Allegedly.

Allegedly.

Allegedly.

It's a legend. It is a legend.

It's a legend?

Oh, I'm sorry, Caitlyn Jenner.

There are, yeah, there's, you don't want to be playing with those sorts of things.

But yeah, people, um, often misgender, and I'm not going to say their name, but there's a number of people on the internet who've done a lot of genuinely awful stuff who are also transgender, and people love misgendering them because they're like, oh well, this person's probably, you know, this, or they might not be telling the truth, or I just don't like them. And that's just never appropriate because we, we just can't treat being trans as, um, a privilege and not a right. It's an inalienable right.

I want to also extend that out to cis people as well. I've seen people misgender folks like, as an example, J.K. Rowling, as like a— I don't know, like a harmful joke to be like, you hate trans people so much, well, I'm gonna misgender you, or something.

I don't know.

I don't know the ideas behind it, but it's not helping anyone. It's not doing anything positive. It's just expanding harmful rhetoric.

Yeah, and, and I think it also goes into The topic of ever, ever scrolling through Facebook. It's— Facebook's horrible, but like, and you see conservative people being like, oh, it's the purple hair and pronouns, and they're like an AI really fat person screaming at someone in a red hat. And it's like, oh, you're ugly, so your point's moot. It's kind of the same as that. It's like, don't attack what the person looks like or who the person is, attack their If they've got some really awful ideas.

Attack their ideology, attack the rhetoric they use. Don't attack their individual traits because there's lots of people in the world that also share the similar traits and you're also harming them.

It's also just lazy.

Like, they've given us so much material and you're going for something so obvious. Like, come on, give it 5 minutes of thought before you insult someone.

Not even, 30 seconds.

Yeah, exactly. I remember one of the early AI memes that one of the conservatives, like it was an anti-trans thing, but one of the conservatives made, and it was Albanese but a trans woman. And I've called him Albo Big Naturals. And it's just the funniest thing because he looks kind of great. I'll be honest. Albanese would make a beautiful woman.

I don't know.

According to AI. According to AI, Albanese would make a beautiful woman. But like the thing that got me is why do they make it look great? Like why are you making transgender Anthony Albanese look incredible?

Because I think he would look incredible.

And he would.

And he does.

And he, yeah.

I mean, Albany, Albo, if you're listening, yeah, it's an option.

Give a bit of thought.

If that's been on your mind for a bit, you know, just—

the AI shows, the AI will show you the results, you know, you could do it.

Also, yeah, you're totally right, Sass. Yeah, it's some— some people— something people never consider is just like misgendering as like a—

As a form of verbal abuse. Yeah, thanks for texting in, Sass. Appreciate you.

I've got a note on pronouns.

Please.

Um, I think if you think that somebody might be presenting their gender in a specific way, I think it's okay sometimes to not ask and kind of assume. Like, for me, like, if I see people who I think might be trans out in the world very clearly presenting really femme or very clearly presenting very masc, it can also be kind of affirming to use he/him pronouns or use she/her pronouns and let yourself be corrected if it's a they/them by default or if you've got it wrong.

On that note, when I see someone I think is like transfemme or transmasculine. If I think they're transfemme and they're wearing a dress, I'll be like, I love your dress. Don't even have to mention the person, like don't have to mention gender. Like, that's a pretty dress you're wearing. Or like, I love your hat or your badges.

Or, uh, that was definitely something that I learned after transitioning into, you know, being visibly a man, learning to compliment people's style choices instead of how they look as a person. You know, like when I was presenting feminine, complimenting a person's looks, it was like, oh wow, you're so pretty, like amazing, you're so like, you look super cute today. Normal. If I say that as a man, that's some hectic behavior.

Yeah, and like one thing I heard a while ago, like, um, don't objectify the person when you're complimenting them. Like, hey, you know, you have a really nice body. That's like—

That's creepy.

Yeah, something they can't change. But it's like, you know, I love this shade of lipstick.

Your nails are amazing.

Yeah, things they can change. Yeah, choices. Like, like, I've had people go, you know, I love your jacket. I'm like, oh, thank you.

Yeah.

And you know, that, that makes the world to me. And but I've, I've had, I've had people also go, you're cute, you're chubby. I'm like, Uh, I mean, thank you for the compliment, but that's not really my thing. I mean, I'm not— I don't like it.

I've had, um, the unfortunate instance a lot of times with people thinking that I want them to comment on my body when I'm just like out in the world.

And people have, um, commented particularly on like, you know, let's just say specific parts of my anatomy that have changed since going on hormones. And I'm aware My house has this magical thing called a mirror, and I know what changes have happened. I don't need to be reminded. Like, people can genuinely set out to be complimentary and then come off a little bit creepy.

Yeah, totally. And there are certain ways to go about it. Like, you know, something about my body that has changed after transition has been my facial hair growth. I have a pretty hectic beard and mustache. But that's also an easy thing for me to change. I can shave that. I've chosen to grow that out. So when somebody goes, wow, I love your beard, or you've got like such a full mustache, like, that's awesome. Like, wow, that's really cool. I try to keep up on, you know, making sure that my facial hair is healthy and decently well-groomed. Don't look at it right now, it's a mess. But that's an easy thing to shift and change, and that has been an active choice.

Yeah.

There's differences in that and like going, you've lost so much weight, or you've really filled out, or something like that. Like, don't say that. That's creepy.

Yeah. I mean, like, if I'm like, hey, you know, I like my top growth, you know, and then someone's like, oh my God, that's amazing. Yeah, I've—

You've opened that conversation.

Yeah, yeah. You've opened that door. You've given sort of implicit consent for that conversation to happen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Whereas it's just like being at a bakery, There's not permission to—

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Just being outside.

I'm sure many women generally can identify with having unsolicited comments directed at you for existing in the world. Yeah, I, I don't recommend doing that to another person.

I really, really appreciate it when men I don't know yell at me from cars.

Oh my God, isn't it great?

It's so good.

I had, uh, I had men yell at me from cars and throw a mostly full bottle of beer at me from the from the car. That was so cute and fun. I really needed a drink, actually. So probably illegal because I was like 14, but you know, still.

Men, am I right?

It's not all men.

Not all men. I'm here. I don't do that.

It's not always men. I've had beer thrown at me by women. That might have been my fault. I don't remember.

Yeah, it's, it's just not great people. They exist in all forms.

Yeah, men, women, non-binary people. And like— We can all be awful.

It's okay.

Yeah, we can all be awful.

Can I, can I say a word that rhymes with canker? Do I have to do a language warning for canker with a W?

You should be right. That's— it's a bit PG, but yeah, go on, go on, do it. Now you're on the spot.

Wankers of all genders. Yeah, everyone can be a wanker.

Wankers of the world unite.

Wankers of the world unite.

What are you, a yob or a wanker?

Tism reference, tism reference.

The 2 genders, yob and wanker. What are you?

Oh, that's so going on.

Um, you're listening to Transmission on 4ZZZ, just in case you didn't know. Oh yeah, that too. Uh, yeah, we, uh, by trans people, for trans people and allies and people who want to know things. That's, that's what we're doing.

Yeah. Does anyone else have anything they want to just say about language, or—

It's not about language, but Sophie, this is really good, and I think resources like this are incredibly important, especially for, for a station like 4ZZZ that operates in and around so many trans people. I think you've done really good work.

Oh, thank you. But, um, yeah, like, 4ZZZ's always been for marginalized voices too, and like, I, I believe that language Like just slight changes in language, slight, like, um, like speaking things into reality, uh, important. Like, because 4ZZZ was the first, one of the first stations to have the Mori Hour, um, First Nations-led programming, um, first queer radio show, I believe, in Queensland. I want to say Australia, but Queensland.

Yeah, Mega Ho's just had their 50th.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 4triplez being a bastion for like marginalized voices is—

Yeah, language is hugely important, and changing language and normalizing specific kinds of language changes culture, you know. It's the, it's the starting point of how we make things better for all people.

As Billy Bragg says, um, the power of the word is the power to change the world. Even small tweaks, a word phrasing shift in tone, can Just be a profound difference. And if someone's listening to the radio and they're like, I don't feel validated, I think using validating language to describe a person who may not know what they're feeling is powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. What is a really small change, really realistically, in the way that you speak can have just immense effects on a person's self-worth and self-esteem and their comfortability in a social space.

Yeah, I mean, bring power into it. Also, a good song, good song if you want to like know what questions to not ask, is Elephant in the Room by Axis of Awesome. It's hilarious, especially in these times when like Pauline Hanson and stuff are very much trying to invalidate us.

Like, using language that validates us is Yeah, it's one of those little tiny things you can do and change about the way you walk through the world every day that makes everything a lot more safe for trans people.

Yeah, I, I think it's you are rather than you prefer. Like, that, that was one of the things that really stood out to me was like, you are a trans woman, you are non-binary, your name is this, not you prefer this name. Because if you prefer the name, it's like, I'd prefer to wear this shirt today, or I'd prefer to wear a different pair of socks, or I'd prefer to eat ramen for lunch rather than Maccas. I mean, both valid.

Can I just say, mentioning Pauline Hanson, you did remind me that I had actually planned to talk about some of the news that have happened, that has happened recently.

Of course.

Yeah, we're a news program as well, aren't we?

I completely forgot. So sorry to our editor and to our listeners who are used to us talking about the news at the very beginning of the show, because that was on me. The first thing I just want to talk about briefly, the Pathways trial for trans youth to be prescribed puberty blockers will go ahead in the UK after a challenge has been thrown out by the High Court. The Pathways trial was challenged by a number of individuals or groups arguing that the trial was unlawful. However, after a 2-day hearing, the UK High Court has ruled that it can in fact go ahead. Uh, the trial is quoted by the Pathways team as being a carefully designed study to give much-needed evidence about the potential benefits and risks of puberty suppression to improve NHS care. A limited number of young people will be eligible to take part in this trial and must have already received significant psychological and social support through the NHS's gender services. This comes after Dr. Cass, who is infamously known for the Cass review, made a statement in June that, quote unquote, more children will be harmed if we don't do the trial than if we do. So she was for the trial going forward. There in local news, a new petition— I don't know if we talked about this last week because it is fairly recent— a new petition urging the Queensland Parliament to reinstate trans healthcare has been put up. MP Joe Kelly has sponsored a petition that requests the Legislative Assembly do everything in its power to reinstate gender-affirming care for trans kids. The brief statement highlights the need for healthcare to be provided by medical and healthcare professionals rather than politicians. The e-petition can only be signed by people living in Queensland, so if you're eligible, make sure you get on there and do that.

Get into it. There's— I'm sure we'll put a link on the socials.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's only been up there for just over two weeks, I think, and it already has almost a thousand signatures. But you know, jump on. It's it's awesome.

Go you good thing.

Yeah, we get more than ten thousand. It needs to be debated in Parliament. So that's the number to be.

We're already ten percent, and it's only been two weeks.

So nine thousand five hundred last time. So we were just this close.

Yeah, get on it. Yeah, really cool. Also, if you are an older Tasmanian person. This is a cool thing for you. Last story of the day: Tasmanian victims of former laws against homosexuality and quote unquote cross dressing may be eligible for financial redress. So in 2017, Tasmania enacted legislation that allowed those charged or convicted of the old laws to have their records expunged. They've now taken it a step further, acknowledging that the impact of these laws has been pretty hectic, and they're offering financial redress to those affected. If you are somebody who was affected, you can submit your application to expunge your historical offences on the Tasmanian Department of Justice website, and they'll contact you further for information if needed. But that's everything.

Thank you for the news.

And yeah, during, during that, Ruth made a really good point. Care to share?

Yeah, um, I love the language guide that has been made today, but there is an issue, and that they do like a lot of good work in laying the groundwork for like how to Be respectful when talking to people. Um, but I just— I think it needs to be made clear that there's a lot of diversity in the language that people use to talk about themselves.

And I've personally had the experience of people, um, trying to correct me on potentially subversive language that I use to describe myself, and then they aren't necessarily in the same community as me. And like, I just want to make it clear, if a trans person decides to describe themself in any way they're allowed to. Transgender people can call themselves transsexual. They can refer to gender-affirming care in antiquated language. They can, you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone does that. I personally usually call myself transsexual. Uh, when I talk about bottom surgery, I refer to it as a sex change. I try not to do that with other people because that's not appropriate. But yeah, there's a lot of reasons and a lot of diversity in the language. But I wouldn't— I also wouldn't invite people who aren't in the community to adopt that old language because we have moved on for a reason, but some of us old relics like myself do still like it.

Yeah, and it's also, you're talking about your own individual experience. You're not putting that language onto other people either.

Yeah, um, it's because that's where it becomes inappropriate.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I know people that like to use the T-slur for themselves, um, but then have gone on to try and use that for me And I don't like that word for myself, so I don't agree with that. And I tell them, hey, don't use that for me. And they go, oh, sorry.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's the same with the F-slur and the slur that rhymes with bike.

A lot of people don't like that slur. A lot of people absolutely love it.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Not the place of anyone else to tell someone how they can refer to themselves if it's not, you know, if it's about a community that they're a part of. A word that I've unfortunately encouraged and accidentally encouraged some people to use who I don't think should use it is t-girl. Um, I think of it as a reclamation because it refers to a porn category. Um, it's, it's quite a demeaning term. Um, but I used to run a meme account called T-Girl of Me Engine. I'm outing myself here. Don't use that term to refer to someone who you do not know.

Yeah. Unless—

I mean, I'm a little bit different because I literally took that term, but like, don't just Don't invite it into your everyday lexicon. It's actually incredibly offensive.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and there's a lot of terms like that, you know, like, um, some trans, uh, women in Thailand have taken on the term ladyboy, but that is absolutely inappropriate to, to refer to anybody else like that if you are not specifically a trans woman in Thailand. You know, it's their word, to use if they wish, not yours to, to use for others.

Yeah. And if you're an ally listening, just ask.

Yeah, ask the question.

Absolutely.

You know, if, if someone refers to themselves as— a bit of a language warning— tranny, like, I know a few people who've referred to themselves as that, and like, it may be appropriate in a self-referential kind of way, but like, sometimes people don't want to be called that by cis allies, or—

It's definitely a personal thing, but if this is not your experience, I would just, you know, err on the side of caution.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And on that note, I've been Sophie, my pronouns are she/they.

I'm Elliot, and my pronouns are he/him.

I'm Ro, my pronouns are they/them.

And I'm Ruth.

And you've been listening to Transition—

Transition Transmission.

Pardon my French. Yeah, Transmission, and we'll see you next Monday.

Thanks for listening to Transmission. Catch us every Monday live on 4ZZZ from 10 AM, or listen to our podcast on the Community Radio Plus app.